190. Grief, Emergence and Dating After Divorce with Wendy Sloneker

Today's guest, Wendy Slonaker, is a grief and emergence coach. In this episode, she shares her transformative journey through the end of her marriages and her paths to her authentic identity.
Wendy talks about how she used Al-Anon, a 12-step program, to uncover her codependency issues and how she learned to love herself enough to enter a healthy relationship with her wife, Jennifer.

 Wendy offers her take on using dating apps for self-discovery and personal growth. We dive into the importance of being intentional when dating and the lessons we learn from the people we connect with. 

Featured on the Show: Wendy Sloneker

Wendy Sloneker is an Emergence Channel and Coach.

Wendy works with innovators, early adopters, and high achievers who are navigating any combination of the 40+ life events that can bring about grief, loss, heartbreak, resentment, or otherwise shadow seasons.

• Wendy’s Website
• Wendy’s Podcast
• Wendy’s Instagram 

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Transcript

Sade Curry: 0:29

Hello everyone, welcome back to the dating after divorce podcast. It is good to be back. I've been off for a couple of weeks just doing some R&R and collecting myself and just really enjoying, taking some time to enjoy the summer. But I'm glad to be back and I have a special treat for you with this episode back in July. I have with me my friend, coach, colleague and fellow podcast host, wendy Slonaker, here in the Zoom room, and Wendy is a grief and emergence coach and she is the host of hang on, let me get the podcast name right. I covered it up Emergence from life's biggest obstacles, and if there's something that felt like a lot of life's biggest obstacles, it was divorce. So Wendy is here to tell her story and drop all the gems about how we can move through grief, heal, grow, emerge. Wendy, welcome to the podcast, it is a delight to have you here.

Wendy Sloneker: 1:32

Hi Shade, hi everybody. I'm thrilled and a half to be here.

Sade Curry: 1:37

Yes, thank you. Thank you for coming and tell the listeners who you are and what you do. What is an emergence coach Like we want to?

Wendy Sloneker: 1:46

know. Thank you. This is like this is pretty new to me as well. So emergence happened like it was dropped on me divinely, like, oh, wendy, I think grief. You've been working in grief and loss for three or four years now and what I've, what I received, was this word called emergence. As a coach, it was in a mastermind and it's with a coach that we share, and so, like, emergence just came to me in terms of, yeah, this is the direction. The idea here is that, yes, it's navigating change and shift and transformation, but it's also implying that there's another side, like grief is not something we work through and just get stuck in and hang out in and camp out in for years. This is something we emerge from, this is something we can transcend, and this is not the destination. So let's keep going.

Sade Curry: 2:49

Yes, oh, yes, I love that. I mean that resonates so hard. I know that resonates with the listeners because, like, divorce is just such a journey with so many cycles of grieving and emerging and grieving and emerging. So, yeah, that definitely hits home. But we have to hear your story and I want to. I'm going to be listening for all the like emergence in there because I've read there's a ton oh, have your own divorce story, your own relationship journey. Let's start with where you are, like what does relationship look like for you now? And then we'll talk about how you got here.

Wendy Sloneker: 3:25

All right. Right now, relationship looks like married partnership with a rambunctious dog that I don't know like. We don't have biological children either one of us. But I'm married to a woman and she's amazing and honestly, we met when I was 41 and I. We met in 12 step rooms and so we each sort of got there. I was not entertaining. I was inside of a brand new program. It was called Alenon. It's still called Alenon, but like I was new to that and the reason that I was there is I wanted a relationship. I had been sober for six years and I really wanted a relationship where I could be a responsible adult, not more on that later.

Sade Curry: 4:20

Exactly, but also like you know there was.

Wendy Sloneker: 4:28

Make sure that I talk about the dating apps, because I cannot like I'm not a responsible person when it comes to dating apps Like that is a place where I put myself on restriction, no, so, anyway. So we met and I was 40, 41. I was also doing things that I had never done before, like I was a go-go dancer at 41. And that's when I met my wife, jennifer, and it was not a full-time thing, it was just something I had never done before and so I wanted to get up and do it. So I was doing that. I didn't meet her go-go dancing. I met her in Alenon but honestly, when I look back, I was not ready for this relationship anytime before we met. Like that would have been something that would have felt too good to like. I wasn't good enough for this kind of peace, for this kind of ease, for the effortlessness and the support that just comes easily in this one. I wasn't ready. I would have burned it down.

Sade Curry: 5:41

I hear that. How long have you been together?

Wendy Sloneker: 5:44

We've been together. It'll be 14 years on next week.

Sade Curry: 5:50

Yeah. So this isn't new, this isn't a still trying it out. If you've had peace for 14 years, that's real.

Wendy Sloneker: 5:59

And I've grown, and she's grown in her ways but also in our ways. Since then she's seen me move through a lot of different facets of career and shift around work and I've been there and just supported her and us emotionally, without getting in her business.

Sade Curry: 6:25

Yeah, I love that.

Wendy Sloneker: 6:26

That's a. Thing.

Sade Curry: 6:28

I know recently you celebrated 20 years sober, thank you. Yeah, my journey into coaching started with Christian 12-step Celebrate Recovery, so I definitely am with you on there with the 12 steps. Thank you for telling me, absolutely, absolutely, it was saved my life, because I was like, the day before I separated from my ex, I had no idea that I had codependency issues. So, literally, at 39 slash 40, I was like, oh look, my life is unmanageable, interesting.

Wendy Sloneker: 7:11

That's fantastic yeah.

Sade Curry: 7:14

I'm over, but, like you know, because we're not again. So tell us, tell us, you know what brought you to that moment where you met Jennifer in Alanott.

Wendy Sloneker: 7:26

What brought me to that moment? Oh, pretty much every single freaking day before that I my divorce story. Actually, I think I'll just like head back there to the divorce story. I was married to a delightful man for three years. We were together a total of eight years, and you know the I started going to therapy and getting some counseling because I was afraid this was something that was just mine in my inner experience. I was afraid that my next step was going to be I was supposed to have a kid and so I went to get some support just to like talk about that process, that that had nothing to do with this lovely man who, like that, was the most I knew of love and it was real and it was lovely.

Wendy Sloneker: 8:25

And then when I discovered and it was like an epiphany awakening I have grown up with the idea this was not part of my growing up family, but my inside experience was everyone somewhere on the sexuality scale. So I happened to be somewhere that I had identified as a straight white woman. For you know, like most of my life until I had an experience where I was no longer able to deny like these feelings. It was like a wake-up call and it had to do with one person that I had known for a long time but saw in a different way, and I'm so proud that I didn't have to sleep with her in order to like confirm. It was just a knowing on me that was inside of me, and I was no longer able to deny that, like, wait a minute, this feels real and what it looks like, or what I should be doing, is no longer in play. So the first person I told was my now ex-husband, and it was brutal, it was freaking awful. It was certainly not something I ever wanted to like. If I had known going into that relationship and marriage that I would one day be coming out as a lesbian, that is not something I would have done at all. So that not recently.

Wendy Sloneker: 10:07

I, shortly after I came out, ended up having an opportunity to move to New York, so it was like it all just came to a head. I had lived most of my life in the Bay Area of California and then I had an opportunity to move across the country and work in theater, which is where my undergrad is in, and so there was just a lot of opportunity for change and identity shift, and so it was November when I moved across the country. I had been out of the house that we had shared for about six months three, four, six months, I can't remember. Now this was 2002 and I moved across the country. That was culture shock, that was identity shift, that was grief and loss. My parents at the time were really struggling with what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're coming, you're what? And there was a lot of it's just a phase sort of thing that was discussed and then re-discussed and then, hey, let's discuss that again, because I was, I was, I was, I was 35. Is that I love it?

Sade Curry: 11:34

I can't possibly know my own self.

Wendy Sloneker: 11:36

No way, let's all weigh in here on her life that she's very sure about but we're not sure about, right, it's just such a like something they never expected to go through and grieve, and I could not be there for them. In that that I, I got mine and I finally at some point was like listen, I can't talk about this anymore unless you're going to support me in whatever way.

Sade Curry: 12:11

Interesting that, and I don't want to put a name on it, like and mesh men or whatever, but I am a parent of grown children, kind of on the cost at this point, and I recognize that temptation to not see them as sovereign humans. Yeah, like we've been in this appropriately codependent relationship for 18 years, where I'm in charge of all of your choices, responsible and all that. I'm responsible, I'm in charge and we're working this out together and without self awareness or understanding of appropriate relationships.

Wendy Sloneker: 14:08

Individuation it's very easy to just continue seeing your child in that light, right 35, it's like well, yeah, we need to discuss this right, right, and so that you know, like putting that in a way where actually nothing's wrong this is simply a direction, this is a truth of mind that I am and I'm going in this direction. I'm actually not asking for permission. This is where I'm going and you know that that certainly does have consequences. That certainly has, like there was upheaval, there was a lot of confusion, there was hurt and there was also just not knowing Plenty of not knowing.

Sade Curry: 14:57

What do you feel? Because you know I'm always reference the stress scale, like the life incidents that have the highest number of points for stress, and divorce tends to have a cluster of them, so it's not just the one thing. So divorce by itself I think it's the second highest, but cluster around divorce is then moving, which is one of the top 10 as well. Changes in financial situation complete. There are like 5 that cluster around divorce, like when you add up the stress points for divorce and everything that goes with it.

Sade Curry: 15:33

It tends to be like really, really high. What were you?

Wendy Sloneker: 15:37

experiencing, you know, most of it I was on such a like I felt like I had I had gone through some sort of transformation. It was like a deepening, but it was also a way for me to tell this truth that had I'd never entertained or considered for myself. I was just always kind of like, okay, well, what am I supposed to be doing next? Versus what do I want next, and so that kind of like uh, overshadowed thought about, like, what do other people think? Or what will other people say? Um, this is not okay. There was that that had felt so freeing.

Wendy Sloneker: 16:20

Um, in the middle of telling my truth, there were a lot of people who felt a lot of hurt and anger, reasonably, 100%, reasonably, uh, some of the challenging feelings didn't really come until later for me, uh, and some of that has to do with, like, I had this whole new identity that I had never explored.

Wendy Sloneker: 16:44

There was, um, a sense of more uh, pleasure and presence in where I was going right. So I had somewhere really like wild and incredible and new to go, and it was this whole culture that, uh, I was gonna swim in. And so it was kind of like having another adolescence, one where, like, I was clear and I was present and I, like, knew about some of my own working parts and what didn't work around partnership and intimacy and this sort of thing, but it was on a freer level, yeah some of this also included a lot of shame, um, when I was disclosing and coming out to people that, um, that I hadn't known earlier, right, like there was no way I could have known earlier and there was no way, ultimately, eventually, that I should have known earlier.

Wendy Sloneker: 17:50

So when I let myself off the hook from that, that's where some real healing also began. That was just acceptance of my story and my path.

Sade Curry: 18:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's powerful. So it sounds like the sort of the joy and freedom that came from hey, I'm fully being myself now, almost like ameliorated the. I'm moving across the country and taking the subway and I don't know if you have to climb five flights of stairs to your apartment in New York because that craziness happens over there. Right, right, all of that happening, it almost seems like it balanced it out. I don't know, does that sound true?

Wendy Sloneker: 18:32

I would say, yeah, I think it was more like there was more to focus on that was unknown and exciting. I felt like things had been really opening up by me coming out and coming to this realization. But then also I could see an empathize with it was not an opening up for others, Like with my ex-husband, we ended up going to counseling to end the marriage and so we hadn't been to counseling before. It was a perfectly excellent relationship, Like we didn't fight, we didn't have a lot of problems around that relationship. It was super loving and that's what I knew of love at the time.

Sade Curry: 19:17

Yeah, yeah, I love that you went to counseling for that. That's just very conscious.

Wendy Sloneker: 19:24

I was really proud of myself for that. I mean, that was something that, like one, I'm really proud that I didn't sleep with the person, that kind of like was a catalyst for my own awakening. I didn't sleep with them her them at this point, and I haven't really talked to them in a while either. So, like, yeah, I was proud of that. But also going to counseling, either just to talk it out in a facilitated way or to end it, Mine was to. My priority was like I want to end this well, and I'm not sure what his was, other than I'm so glad he agreed to it.

Sade Curry: 20:10

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. So what came next? You, yeah, you're in New York, you're living free. Yeah.

Wendy Sloneker: 20:18

Fandy. It's like wild, like some of the things that just ridiculous. Like I moved in November. I drove across country and I moved to New York without a coat. I was like, oh, that's what Northern California people do. It was like they move over and think let's just see what happens and so let's like, let that just be an example of me going into the entire lesbian culture, Right?

Wendy Sloneker: 20:53

I was like without a coat in November in New York. What so? So much I didn't know, so much I didn't really like understand or get until I had a lived experience. Primarily, this had to do with my first girlfriend who, like knew completely, had known my husband. We had known each other for a while.

Wendy Sloneker: 21:15

I had worked in theater when she lived in San Jose and, like we worked great together on backstage projects and so that's how I got my first job in theater in New York and, honestly, that like I was coming out of a marriage and into a new, completely new identity, and then this person was looking for somebody for a very long term, like please don't make me date again kind of relationship. And so when she asked me, hey, can I call you my girlfriend, my experience was, well, she's not asking to get married. So girlfriend means for me committed, and for me that also meant monogamous and it did not mean wife. However, like my experience of that in lesbian culture was like it's closer than it's closer to wife than girlfriend in that capacity. So that was a big learning curve around communication and like, what are we talking about exactly? But I was in such an adolescent phase as well that I was like OK yeah, here's what I'm hearing, here's what I'm not hearing.

Sade Curry: 22:37

I don't even know that it had. I think, ok, so I was a dating coach and that talking to my clients, my listeners and humans out in the world about dating, I don't think that's it. I think that's like a everybody thing. I don't know, it's an adolescent thing, literally. I have a moment in my program where I talk to people about understand frames of reference. Ensure that you clarify frames of reference. Right, huge, because that's what that was Like huge relationships, so huge, and what you might be using. The same words could mean completely different things. Just this is the perfect example of it.

Sade Curry: 23:25

And so when my clients meet people, I'm always like OK, so what do you? Because they, what they do is. The other term that we then use is leapfrogging so they hear something and then they leapfrog to the picture they have in their brain, and so my job as a coach is to say OK. So he said he wanted to have kids with you and you took that to mean he's committing to you and you're eventually going to get married and have kids. I said so. He said this you leapfrog to. That Do is actually get curious. What do you mean by?

Wendy Sloneker: 23:57

that Tell me more? Is there a timeline? What are we talking about?

Sade Curry: 24:02

And like, is this like happy with me? Like tonight, right, right, like I don't know what, yeah, I'm going off birth control, what, what, I thought we were at the movement park. Yeah, yeah, and so I think that's. I think that's a beautiful illustration of just understanding that frames of reference are important, especially if we're approaching relationships with a mature, adult mind, where we don't assume what other people are saying, where we assume that other people are a universe onto themselves, and we want to get curious and know this person and what they're thinking and what what they're saying means.

Wendy Sloneker: 24:39

Amazing. This is also like when you were talking about the levels of stress. Like all the things that you mentioned, shadeh, were like also things that can spark feelings of grief and loss not only stress, but also grief and loss. So, you know, having that understanding about leapfrogging as well, it's not just a this thing, it's an everybody thing. Everybody has their own unique experiences of dating, of divorce, of loss, of all of it. It's in it's kind of a wild crucible when we're talking about divorce and relationships because they're so pinnacle for us, like we do a lot of, we do a lot of things in pinnacle relationships, so, like it's, they're pretty important. Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that.

Sade Curry: 25:30

Yeah, 100%. So you had your first relationship with that and you met. You knew her in person. When did you get on the dating apps?

Wendy Sloneker: 25:40

Oh God, that was. That was when I had moved to Seattle during my first year of sober recovery, and it was eating disorder recovery. I had ended up stopping drinking at the same time. So I think it was when I had moved to Seattle. There was another relationship that I had tried to have long-term when I moved from New York to Seattle and it ended after like a year and a half-ish 15 months something and I was devastated. Like I felt more heartbroken during my divorce with this relationship. That was less than half the time. Like it was the relationship that just I crumbled in so fetal position frequently for a long time I ended up going to try dance classes at the Century Ballroom, shout out here in Seattle so I could like meet people with appropriate touch and just sort of like not really get super attached, but also have some fun and get myself out of the house.

Wendy Sloneker: 27:02

Dating apps were kind of around that period as well, and so it was a lot of spiked emotion for me. It was a lot of adrenalized, very playful, super flirty time for me and I'm a writer as well, so like I can come across as like fun and hilarious and all those things Part of the Gemini nature, I suppose. But I really was having so much fun with it and at the same time I was not my most mature self, not emotionally mature, not like it wasn't. I think I tried to date one or two people at a time and that just blew up in my freaking face because most of the people that I were talking to were just really ready to have the one.

Sade Curry: 28:04

This thing. Dating was not really a thing People are always like well, nobody of the apps wants to commit. And then how people look for the one.

Wendy Sloneker: 28:16

They called it dating, not really.

Sade Curry: 28:21

Yeah, I was fascinated by that. And there's no, I don't have any scientific proof, I really just have experiential proof that who we connect with, who we find or who finds us on the apps is a reflection of the next thing we need to learn, right, right. And so a lot of my clients come in and they're like, well, I've been on the apps and all I get is this and these are the people that like me and I've swiped on 5000 people and I'm like because they think that that means that there's no, there are no good people on the apps, like no one wants a commitment, no one wants to run, and what I end up teaching them is that, well, the reason, like you have to swap on 5000 people and then still come and hire me is that you didn't learn Like you, going into learning from each one to the next one.

Wendy Sloneker: 29:15

Right, right. Well, and this is similar to like when people, clients, come to me and they're like I've been I've had the same pattern, the same issue over and over again. They may have like married and divorced the same sort of person and had the same patterns over and over again.

Sade Curry: 29:30

Yes, yeah, yes, see your own patterns. Like you can't, you just cannot wait blind spots.

Sade Curry: 29:36

Yep, you know this is why we read books, this is why we listen to videos, this is why we have coaches and therapists to help us see. You know those patterns. And when my clients finally see the patterns, like it's, this is my favorite moment in coaching, when I've had a woman like I'm like OK, the next 10 dates, just do the swiping my way, evaluations my way and let's see what happens. And it's always my favorite thing when they're like oh, I see Some of the criteria I was using to swipe left. Notice some people had nothing to do with those people because here I am dating this person who would have been a no, before I worked with you, and they're actually not too bad. They're not the one, but they're not bad.

Wendy Sloneker: 30:27

Right, right, they're a one dateable date.

Sade Curry: 30:31

Yes, Versus the 25 horrible creepy days that they'd had before.

Wendy Sloneker: 30:38

Yeah, let's not have those.

Sade Curry: 30:39

Yeah. So like the people who like swiped on you and met you, they could take away the message Well, everyone on here is here to just kind of chill and, you know, have fun and get multiple people. But you know you could also be like, well, everybody wants a girlfriend. I don't know what's happening.

Wendy Sloneker: 30:58

Right, and for me some of that too was I didn't know what I wanted. Like I use dating apps for like some of my, like grief and loss as a distraction, so like, ok, I was avoiding my own feelings and let's go meet somebody new. That's a surefire way to meet the exact same person again.

Sade Curry: 31:17

Again and again, yeah, yeah, on the dating apps, using them as distractions. It's all part of everybody's journey. I literally have no judgment. Yeah, I have. You know women who are on the apps to see will anybody like me for validation? I know men who go on there for validation. I know people who go on there for the relationship. There's no judgment, there's just your journey, 100 percent. My clients over and over. I'm like, yeah, of course there's all kinds of people on the apps, but there's your journey and nothing can get in the way of that.

Wendy Sloneker: 31:53

Right, right. I think that would have been like useful for me at the time. This was like pre-swiped dating apps, like there was no swiping happening. This is like long ago. So you know, like if I had had a coach at that time where I was like what are you getting on the apps for? What are you hoping for there? And then let's be sure that we're actually going after that, because that's what you want.

Sade Curry: 32:18

Yeah, versus, we're out there. We're here to check it out, right, what's?

Wendy Sloneker: 32:24

up Right. Let's have like the intentional experiment, because one thing that I was like, oh, I don't really like how I behaved in some of those encounters and at the same time, I got exactly what I needed every time to move on from yes, yeah, oh, I'd love that.

Sade Curry: 32:44

I'd love how you don't shame yourself for that.

Sade Curry: 32:47

Thank you, that's so good, and you know this is what's you know. I just feel like the journey to maturity in relationships does require that experimentation. Whatever that looks like for each people You're going to have to explore, typically with my clients, depending on where they're at, if they haven't dated much before. I'm like listen, your first 15 dates. We're gathering data and exploring. Okay, please don't look for your husband in the first 15 dates. That's just not very good. Okay, because if you married your middle school boyfriend or girlfriend, you stayed with them for 20 years and then got divorced three years ago, and then you're getting on the apps Like you have no data.

Wendy Sloneker: 33:30

There's zero. There is zero, yeah.

Sade Curry: 33:34

So I think that it's like in, so in many ways like careers, this whole journey, oh my gosh, yeah.

Wendy Sloneker: 33:40

Yeah, it's a different kind of resume, like with the apps, versus the other thing, but it yeah, totally totally you might have to try someone for size.

Sade Curry: 33:51

Yeah, so did you get off the app? So are you like oh my God, people just want relationships. This is terrible, oh.

Wendy Sloneker: 33:57

I didn't like how I was feeling, I didn't like how I was behaving, I didn't like how I was obsessing. So I put myself on restriction. I'm like no, no, no, no, no. If I'm not drinking, I'm also not at thing. Not dating apps. No, cannot you have an addictive flavor for you? It felt like it just in terms of the let's check again. Let's check again. Like, did somebody wink at me or smile at me or whatever the hell that they're doing now? Like I didn't like the obsessive check-in aspect for me. Like it took up a lot of my time, it took up a lot of my energy and there was a point where it was really fun, but it was also there was a point where I was really done.

Sade Curry: 34:39

Yeah, so it's interesting, you weren't looking for a relationship, but you were obsessing over what? People, the validation from the people, what was that? What?

Wendy Sloneker: 34:50

do you think that was? That was I was looking for approval or distraction in terms of flirtation, like yeah, okay, that's fun. What did you say Okay? What did you say Okay, what did you? It was like you know my own personal soap opera a few different times and I think I had a higher tolerance for drama as well.

Sade Curry: 35:15

Say that. Oh, I feel that, I feel that you know I have my own stories there, Like yes, yeah, yeah.

Wendy Sloneker: 35:26

So it's okay that that happened and that's true and real that that happened. I don't love every minute of that, or you know, I'm not proud of every bit of what I contributed to all of that, but no, like, there was also a point where I didn't like it anymore. I didn't like who I was anymore. I didn't like that I was only looking externally. I didn't like the way that I was looking at it. I didn't like the way that I was looking at it. I didn't like the way that I was looking at it. That was the distraction piece. Some of it was really fun and I met some gorgeous gorgeous people that I'm still in contact with, but not everybody.

Sade Curry: 36:03

And no, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you still had healing, because if you know, you cut it off, like it's like. Okay, I'm going to stop Doing K and I'm going to stop being on the apps, but there's still a healing that has to be done to heal that desire for healing.

Wendy Sloneker: 36:17

And I'm like, oh, that's still happening. Well, that's still happening, right, right. So, like, for the most part, it was, um, okay, let's go with where I'm. Oh, that's such a good question before I like I'm going to stop talking about that for a second because, yeah, yeah, that was all along. That was how do I want to be, who and how do I want to be, and that has nothing to do with anybody else. If nobody else was ever to give me like a wink or a smile or whatever, or a right swipe or a yes, please, how would I want to be?

Sade Curry: 36:56

Yeah showing up as the person you want to be means that you get. You have your own approval.

Wendy Sloneker: 37:03

Exactly, exactly and that's something that Serena Hicks, our coach, has said recently and talked about is like creating that safety inside. Yes, yep, yep, yep, yep. So the more I was like, oh, I'm just gonna go ahead and take care of myself and just allow other people to come in and then also go as they desire for me to like say what I desire or would prefer, and then be okay with being the person to take care of my own needs.

Sade Curry: 37:39

Oh, that's like a whole that is. I know that's not enlightenment, but it took a lot, yeah, yeah.

Wendy Sloneker: 37:50

And to be able to do that with somebody, I mean it was amazing. Jennifer, my wife and I we speak the same language around. Like what is that? It was so great. She told a story recently just around. Somebody said to somebody else like what are you looking for in a relationship? I'm looking for security and safety and compassion and intimacy and all these things. And the person looks to the other person who just gave that big litany and said actually, the person that you're in a relationship with is giving you you get love from them All the rest of the things you just listed that's on you to get for yourself, which was like whoa you want us to hear that it's like wait what?

Wendy Sloneker: 38:45

Yeah. So part of me is like so that so resonates, and part of me also wants to vomit.

Sade Curry: 38:50

So yeah, I mean, I'm just to know that, like even when we recognize that, I think the reason it feels so painful initially is because we've been conditioned that the opposite was supposed to have. We've been working for the opposite. We've been hustling like we were told to.

Wendy Sloneker: 39:11

Right, I'm looking for the list. Yeah, yeah.

Sade Curry: 39:14

Hustle for the list. Like I mean, I remember being told as a person. Okay, you got to know how to cook, because you got to need to know how to cook for your husband, you got to know how to clean, like all the things, just all of these things, and so it's like, listen, if I'm doing all this, well, like that, better be this, I get, better get paid. Yeah, where's the provider part?

Wendy Sloneker: 39:33

Yeah, or where's the position?

Sade Curry: 39:35

The social status, the empathy, all of those things. And it's very transactional the way and I think it's a global culture issue that we talk about relationships versus being taught to have that first relationship with ourselves.

Wendy Sloneker: 39:55

Oh my gosh, yeah, if we started out with like actually having a relationship with ourselves, it would radically change so much because it's radically changed, like me post divorce and now me mid marriage.

Sade Curry: 40:10

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. I love that you talked about just that desire for approval. I mean a lot of what happens in my practice is helping my clients, those who have it like not everyone. People come at different stages of their journey. It could take a little longer for them to. It could take a little longer for people who are still really in the grasp of the desire for approval, the desire for security, or if they don't see their own personal value and sometimes we have to do I love to do the work at the same time so that and ever that moment comes right there they meet their person. Some people do all of that work before and then boom, you know they'll meet someone. Have a client who met her person in new record less than eight weeks.

Wendy Sloneker: 41:02

Well done Persons.

Sade Curry: 41:04

Oh, that's exciting, I'm like eight weeks I was like I'm going to advertise in that I'm going to tell you a story, but I am not going to put that on my messaging because I don't know.

Wendy Sloneker: 41:13

Right, that's a big promise.

Sade Curry: 41:14

Yeah, that's a big big promise, but I recognize that the level of that undercurrent of approval or security, the level that a person comes with it, often determines the length of that journey. Wow.

Wendy Sloneker: 41:30

Yeah, that totally makes sense and you know like we can like, want and need approval, but like having it from the inside is way different than like trying to make it happen externally and then I'm kind of getting somebody else who's not thinking about you or only thinking about you a small portion of the time, if they actually love you. Oh my gosh.

Sade Curry: 41:55

Feel this deeply that you have Like yeah the best person to do it, that you can rely on to do it every time, is yourself.

Wendy Sloneker: 42:03

Right, right. Somebody's dying of thirst and walking around with a water bottle on them, and then they're looking for water everywhere else, but like the bottle they already have Totally.

Sade Curry: 42:15

Yes, oh my gosh, that's so good, so good, okay. So what kind of coming to the end of our conversation Like Is there any part of your story that you feel like we haven't touched on that could really be of value to the listeners.

Wendy Sloneker: 42:32

You know I have a story I'm not super proud of it but I think it would really be illustrative, just based on what we've been talking about around self-sufficiency and sovereignty versus expectations externally Part of when I was going to salsa dance class to learn how to do some social dancing, which I love, I signed up to be a follow. So there's a lead and then there's the follow in social dancing and so I signed up to be a follow. I'm pretty much like charge-ahead sort of person and so I took it on as a follow, kind of as a spiritual experiment. Like I was early in recovery, could I actually follow? This has to do with surrender, right. This has to do with relinquishment of control and there was a person that will never forget this and she was a lead and we were paired up for a dance and she looked at me mid whatever I don't know what mid-song is I guess.

Wendy Sloneker: 43:48

And she's like you know you're leading yourself here, right, it was like I had such a strong sense of wanting to retain control that I was doing something called back-leading, not proud of this, but like my like, okay, I'm paired up with you as the lead and I'm the follow, but I'm going to make it look like hashtag manipulation. I'm going to make it look like and seem like we're doing what you want to do. No, she said you know you're leading yourself here. I'm like yeah, that's the problem. Like I was able to say that immediately in the moment. But that was also my experiment of like okay, wendy. That really showed me a lot about how my back-leading and I was doing it in more than dating. Like I wanted control, I wanted a certain outcome, I wanted to make it happen. I was taught to do that and that was not working in that dance relationship. I'm so grateful to that person. I will never forget that story.

Sade Curry: 44:59

Yeah, yeah, that awareness. I love your awareness in the moment You're like yep, you caught me. Yeah, yeah, so good. And I love how, like we think, people don't notice, oh, gosh, they can feel it.

Wendy Sloneker: 45:19

Oh my gosh, if you had somebody who was back-leading you and manipulating you when you're, like, trying to dance with them, like up close, and you're in their arms, they're in your like, yeah, you're going to know.

Sade Curry: 45:32

Yeah, yeah, I want to find another word for it from a name, because manipulation sounds really malicious and negative. It does, you know, and most people are really just trying to like I don't know, keep themselves safe. Yeah, agree, and they're like in the search for approval or like wanting to retain control, wanting to protect themselves. And then we're doing this thing where we're giving off this fake energy, yep, and hoping or thinking or believing that people don't notice. And I'm constantly telling my clients listen, they notice. Like we've got to work on the energy. We've got to make sure that the energy that you are stepping out into this date with is real and true and true to you. And I'm saying yes to everything the man talks about, because you really like him and you want him to like you. He may not consciously feel it, but he will feel it subconsciously, right, right. And so we got to work on that. And we got to work on like who you are when you are in your home is the same person that you are. You're good with that, right.

Wendy Sloneker: 46:34

Well, and some of that too. Like you know, my awareness was very limited for a long, long time because it wasn't safe for me to like to be out Like I was. I was straight until I was out, and then I was out and that was it. So you know, being good with what you're aware of in the moment, because you're going to get aware of more if you want to. Yeah, you totally will.

Sade Curry: 46:58

Yeah, amazing, like just having that compassion for yourself wherever you are doing the work. But you're like, yep, here. Here's where I am even being able to laugh at it. I remember that from my recovery days, like myself and the other women was just, we just laughed, we just like, oh my gosh so needed to point out all of our like behaviors.

Wendy Sloneker: 47:21

That was mine.

Sade Curry: 47:26

Now it's so funny, wasn't so fun? Then we had to do that to survive it.

Wendy Sloneker: 47:31

But the I don't know how to identify it, though I mean that's healing to. Oh, I'm so glad.

Sade Curry: 47:37

Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. I want to ask a little more about your work. Like when clients come to work with you, what, what? What's usually like, the where they usually? What are the triggers that say, hey, I got to got?

Wendy Sloneker: 47:51

to work with Wendy and got to give her a call, thank you. Sometimes it has to do with shock and I need like some sort of immediate support. There was a person who came to me when somebody had asked her. Her partner of eight years had asked her for a divorce that she did not want, and so coming to terms with that it was like the initial shock. It's never too early to begin grief healing and that is an exact, excellent place of support.

Wendy Sloneker: 48:23

What also also happens is like we carry along lots of things that we haven't processed emotionally, and so sometimes it's a move, sometimes it's a divorce, sometimes somebody died. Death and divorce are the two big D's in terms of like the biggest causes for grief and loss feelings, and so there are 40 plus other planal life events that can bring about grief and loss, so we like kind of pack them in. We've been taught to do that condition to do that. So a lot of times it's several changes that have happened in succession and then the family pet dies and they're like I'm done. I need some help and support immediately because I can't handle that blackie died or that you know my parent died or whatever. It is like that's just the capper.

Sade Curry: 49:15

Yes, yeah, yeah, and you know we and I know you were supposed to be telling me we're going to be wrapping up, but I just grief is like a huge part of, like you know, my journey and my client's work, recognizing that like, in some ways, grief is part of living, where we're constantly experiencing loss.

Wendy Sloneker: 49:38

Yeah, because we're constantly experiencing change. We are so like, you know how does it look and I really want the fun ones, so I don't have time for the ones that are going to quote unquote. Drag me down Until you can't deny them anymore. And that's been my journey again and again, and again.

Sade Curry: 49:57

Yeah, and then what does the after look like? So, after they've worked with you, what is the? What are the outcomes that, typically you are shooting?

Wendy Sloneker: 50:04

for. Yeah, usually it was like here's the thing. Like in my work with people, wins and momentum happen immediately so people can start to feel a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better and that little bit better gains momentum. So what I tend to shoot for is a sense of spaciousness and capacity, Like when I was in the like deepest part of my grief journey. I was at a place where I was like listen, life, Nothing else better happen, because I can't handle it and life doesn't really negotiate like that, so I needed to do something different and then that was on me.

Wendy Sloneker: 50:48

So when I was at that point of like kind of my life was getting so small that I wanted to be just available for fun and laughing and I wanted to experience you know just plain old life as being either okay or above okay. That's what I was shooting for personally. What I tend to shoot for now is like a sense of peace and knowing and capacity, and we're not trying to talk anybody out of their feelings that they're having, but we're also going to acknowledge that this is not the destination. It doesn't have to be.

Sade Curry: 51:30

Love it. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your work with the listeners.

Wendy Sloneker: 51:36

Really appreciate it so, so great. I'm so pleased and grateful that you asked. Thank you, Shade.

Sade Curry: 51:43

Yeah, welcome All right listeners. This has been such a good one. I just feel so much like joy from this conversation. Just, it's really validated. There's so many parts of my own experience. So this is. I want to encourage you to follow Wendy. Her social media handles and her podcast link will be in the show notes. We all experienced grief, so her work and her message, I think will be applicable to all of us. We want to thank you for your time and attention and we will see you next time. Thanks, wendy.