197. Centering Yourself in Your Dating and Relationships with Caitlin Liz Fisher

My guest on the podcast today is Caitlin Liz Fisher, a creativity coach. She shares the story of her first two marriages - the first marked by imbalance and settling, the second by non-monogamy, gaslighting, and abuse.

Caitlin's story is one of resilience, strength, and the power of self-love. She takes us through her inspiring transformation and how she moved from chaotic relationships to a healthy, loving bond with her current partner. Her "Yikes Rule", a gauge for determining the potential success of a relationship, is a fascinating take-away. 

Featured on the Show: Caitlin Liz Fisher

Caitlin Liz Fisher is an author and creativity coach who turned their gifted kid burnout into a way to help neurodivergent, disabled, and queer creatives get their passions back on the priority list. Every challenge they've overcome — abuse, parental estrangement, toxic jobs, and even crappy breakups — has helped them learn to say yes to their deep-down dreams and no to the status quo. They are now living their absolute weirdest, abnormal life and advocating for others to do the same by subverting capitalism and embracing a world where we can finally stop hustling.

• Caitlin’s Website
• Caitlin’s Instagram
• Caitlin’s Podcast

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Transcript

Sade Curry: 0:30

Hi everyone, welcome back to the dating after divorce podcast. I am your host, Sade Curry. I'm really excited to bring today's guest to the podcast. I guess today is Caitlin Liz Fisher. Caitlin is an author, creativity coach and creativity coach who turned their gifted kid burnout Okay, I hear you on the gifted kid, the gifted kid life. They turned their gifted kid burnout into a way to help neurodivergent, disabled and queer creatives get their passions back on the priority list. Every challenge they've overcome abuse, parental estrangement, toxic jobs and crappy breakups has helped them learn to say yes to their deep down dreams and no to the status quo. They are now living their absolute, weirdest, abnormal life and advocating for others to do really the same by subverting capitalism and embracing a world where we can finally stop hustling. Caitlin, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, I'm excited to be here. Please tell the listeners a little bit about yourself who you are, what you do what you're about.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 1:36

Yes, so hi, I'm Caitlyn and I am, as I like to call it, very divorced. I've been divorced twice, so we're going to get into all that juicy goodness. And for the past like five years, I would say that I've really been becoming myself, and that was after I left an abusive marriage, so just sort of unpacking all of the masks that I was wearing and all of the people pleasing and the fawning and everything, and so the past few years have really been an exercise in getting to know myself and what I want, and I'm really hoping that that resonates with your listeners.

Sade Curry: 2:20

Oh, yes, oh yes, 100%. So let's start with the first marriage.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 2:29

Okay.

Sade Curry: 2:30

And just go from there.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 2:31

Let's tell the whole story. I'm just going to be quiet.

Sade Curry: 2:34

I'm just going to tell us all the things Okay great.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 2:37

I married my first boyfriend. He was my first kiss. I did not date at all. He was my very first date. And how old were you? I was. We got married when I was 21. We met when I was 18. And he was four years older than me, so we were 18 and 22. We met online, okay Cupid. I actually met both my husbands on Okay Cupid and I really didn't think that I had a chance at dating anyone. I did not believe that anybody was going to want me. And so when I met him and he did want to date me and he was my first kiss, like I mentioned, he was obviously the first person I ever had sex with and so he was all the first and I was like, well, yeah, it's never going to happen again. So like, this is good, we should, we should probably get married. And he proposed after two years and we got married on our third anniversary when I was 21. And he was 25. And we were divorced like a year and a half later.

Sade Curry: 3:58

Yeah, no one would want me is so common, so common and it's, I could say. I don't know if it's the number one cause of, you know, people settling in relationships, but he sure fuels it.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 4:12

Yeah, yeah, it definitely. I didn't even realize I was settling because I didn't know that there was anything more available to me or anything better, and I just thought that marriage was supposed to be hard. My parents were like the first year is the hardest. I'm like, why would, why would you want to do something where, like, it's really insurmountably hard at first? Shouldn't, shouldn't it be easier? And about three months into marriage, I was just very deeply unhappy and this was not. Nothing is better. I thought my life would be magical unicorns and like rainbows and just so happy and I'm, I'm so fulfilled because I'm married and I was like, oh, that didn't work, that's a problem.

Sade Curry: 5:01

Yeah, what would hard look like in that marriage.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 5:06

Man. He didn't do anything domestic Like he. He did not help around the house. We had an apartment and it was like pulling teeth to get him to take out the trash or to do the dishes and I think he never said it but I think he had sort of like a man's responsibilities, wife's responsibilities thing in his head Because his dad didn't really clean. His dad would vacuum obsessively, but he didn't get that genetic gift. He didn't really vacuum our apartment.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 5:44

But yeah, I only ever remember his mom doing domestic things around the house, yeah, and so I think that he had just internalized this kind of standard American misogynist view of what marriage looks like and he was not really open to discussion like making a budget, and he just kind of wanted to do whatever he wanted to do and chores he like if he pitched in, he needed a cookie about it and meanwhile I'm. I was vegetarian when we got married and I stopped being vegetarian because I didn't have the energy to cook like two meals and he didn't want to eat the vegetarian food. So I just started eating meat again because it was easier.

Sade Curry: 6:35

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like the classic. When you're living apart, you're living your life and he's living his life. When you're dating, it's like, oh, everything's fine because you're not having to negotiate anything, yes, and then the minute the negotiations, negotiations begin. It's almost like you see this other side of the assumptions that everyone made at the beginning.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 7:02

Yes, very much, and he had. We were pretty broke. He had three part-time jobs. Neither of us had health insurance. I was in grad school and had two part-time jobs, so we were on the struggle bus, but I was still doing probably 95% of the domestic labor, as is typical.

Sade Curry: 7:26

Yeah, what was communication, like you said that it wasn't up for discussion, negotiating things that were hard or difficult or causing challenges.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 7:38

The biggest thing with regard to it like not being up for discussion is that first time I had that sort of rock bottom me this is not how I thought it would be. Moment I asked him in, I asked him if he would go to couples counseling with me and he was offended. He said how could you ask me that? How could you ask me to do that? He was just deeply offended that I thought our marriage was in such a state that it needed therapy. And so he that was personal that yeah, it was a personal offense to him that I was like I'm unhappy, we need therapy. And he's like I can't believe you would ask me that, just deeply offended. And I look back on this now and that's objectively hilarious. I should have just been like oh okay, I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna go live my life. But I didn't know and so I thought maybe that was wrong of me to ask, given his response and his reaction.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 8:40

And some time went on. You can have a little bit of a discussion and he starts taking the trash out, starts at least putting his dishes in the sink regularly, things like that, and then it backslides again back into the normal routine. He did do laundry. Sometimes I'll give him props for that he would do laundry. And I asked again I'm still not really happy, can we go to couples counseling? And he agreed this time, but we never ended up doing it. And when I did leave, for real, and I was like I'm not doing this anymore, like I would like to dissolve our marriage. This is not working. He goes what about couples counseling? And I'm like the time is gone, man. The time was when I asked for that and you said I can't believe that you would ask me that I tried, I tried a lot, yeah, and it just did not go. Yeah.

Sade Curry: 9:42

And you know, this story really underscores that invisible labor. Because in your case, because regular labor of like let's pay bills, let's, you know, move our lives forward, go to grad school, have part-time jobs, etc. And then there's the there was a second layer of labor of keeping the home together and all those things which, listening to you, it almost sounds like you could have handled those things. But now having this additional layer of labor where the emotional labor to keep the relationship together was also on you, yeah, I never really thought of that as a third layer of labor, but it really was.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 10:24

Trying to have conversations about how I feel you know that that had been a problem throughout our whole relationship I would say something okay. So because he was my first boyfriend and I was a very naive, young baby, I wanted us to be saying I love you before I had sex and he wasn't ready to say it when I said it. I said it after three months and he wasn't ready and he said it at six months and in the, in the intermediate there I was like screw this, I want to have sex, like a boy wants me, I have attention, I'm going to have sex, and that sort of spiraled. At one point we were having not quite a fight, but I said I feel like a booty call because you'll drive three hours to see me at college and we'll have sex all weekend and then you go home but you won't tell me that you love me.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 11:26

And he got really offended and didn't talk to me all day and I thought he was going to break up with me and I'm crying and my friends lap in her dorm room and I'm like I had sex with him and I felt gross because at the time I had a really limited worldview on my sexuality and it felt like garbage because I said something he didn't like and he immediately went silent and punished me about it. Yeah and I. All I wanted was for him to text me back. It didn't even occur to me that he was being inappropriate.

Sade Curry: 12:04

Yeah, and it also it sounds like your sense of your value was also just so attached to that cookie of he loves me, he wants to be with me, and so, like it's positive, I wonder and now, of course, this is all just like you know theory, like if he knew that he had that power, that you had given him that power to validate who you were.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 13:48

Man. If he knew that marriage probably would have been way worse, Because I'm lucky he was just sort of bumbly about it. Yeah, when I describe my two marriages I do say that he had some abusive behaviors, but I think that his abusive behaviors were grown out of garden variety and misogyny.

Sade Curry: 14:14

Gotcha.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 14:14

He just didn't really think women were all the way people and obviously his behavior reflected that.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 14:23

My second husband was like maliciously and intentionally abusive and controlling and so by comparison I'm like this guy was like small potatoes, like I forget that I was married the first time sometimes, yeah, and he was just so far in my past and it didn't deeply affect me as much as the really abusive marriage did. But there was one time that he we were having an argument about something and I went to like go to him to comfort him. You know, I hold his hand or like just touch him and have that reconnection and he like put his hands up and he said don't come near me because I don't know if I'll be able to stop myself from hitting you. I really want to hit you. Meanwhile I go through my life and I'm like he was not abusive, he's fine, right, and he ended up punching the wall and I packed a bag and went and stayed with a friend. After that I'm like no, you're not doing that to me. So I did have that moment of being like absolutely not, this is not okay.

Sade Curry: 15:26

Yeah, and I think that was the. That was your first, your first husband. Yeah, you know it's. It's interesting that you thought he wasn't abusive.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 15:36

I know right, because I just told that story and I'm like, oh yeah, her face is really doing the yeah yeah, you know it's.

Sade Curry: 15:46

I think what happens, and I don't know, this is okay, but I think what often happens is there are certain sides of men who are abusive, toxic, narcissistic, violent. That I, if you, are compliant enough, it's just not necessary for them to exhibit that capacity, even though it's there.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 16:14

Wow yeah.

Sade Curry: 16:18

And so the judgment is to evaluate a man by his capacity, not just by what he does, but by what he has.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 16:26

The capacity to do. You're blowing my mind right now. I'm like, oh, okay, great, okay. So I've had two abusive marriages. What's?

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 16:36

What's weird it might not, it might not surprise you is he had told me a story where his ex before me they were having an argument and she slapped him in the face after he had had his wisdom teeth out, so very painful. And, as he's telling me this story which I don't think that she should have slapped him, but he told me the same exact thing he said in that moment, I wanted so badly to hit her, but I controlled myself. And I see now that that was sort of like a testing of the waters. Yes, like what? What would my response to that be? And I was like, oh, you were so strong that you didn't fight back in that moment after she hit you. And I'm like, oh, my God, like me today. If he met 2023 me, I would be like you need to go sit in the fucking corner. And I was like we're not going on a date. Bye, that's a red flag. Yikes, yikes, you're out.

Sade Curry: 17:37

Nope Stories like that, told on dates. I think a lot of women see them as oh, he's been so open and vulnerable with me. He's telling me things that he struggled with and no honey.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 17:48

It is, it's a test. Yeah, yeah, oh no.

Sade Curry: 17:56

Well, that makes your I think it makes your growth even more incredible, like where you are now. Thank you, yeah, okay, so let's talk about marriage number two. Okay, great, or okay, well, before we go to marriage number two, how did it end? I think you mentioned that you moved out and said you were not doing this anymore.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 18:15

Mm, hmm, so after he punched the wall, I packed bags, stay with a friend, yada, yada, and then I think I was gone for about a month and then I moved back in and then I really don't have a good timeline Maybe six ish months later, um, we, somewhere in this, we had opened our marriage also. So, um, I was dating a couple of people I think I had like one boyfriend and then we broke up, which was very strange because my first breakup was not my first partner. You know, like I'm married to my first partner, but my first breakup happens with my my first extramarital boyfriend. Yeah, in this open marriage, and he ended up meeting someone and, like immediately on their first date, like broke three of our rules. So you know, like, when you have an open marriage, I don't know if you get a lot of open marriage poly, I don't.

Sade Curry: 19:24

I don't, I don't coach, haven't coached on it, but I do know that in fact I have admired the boundaries and communication in non monogamous yes and gay and queer relationships. There there's so much the communication, since my opinion is just way more open and the boundaries are just way more respectful.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 19:48

It definitely can be. So my first foray into it was very kind of toxic, which it can be like. Non monogamy and monogamy can both be great or toxic like and it depends on the people and the commitment to the boundaries and the mutual respect and all of that. I could talk forever on this. But this situation was that he started seeing this new girlfriend and immediately was going sort of like radio silent, with me not keeping in touch. I didn't know where he was, I didn't know when he was coming home. So this caused a point of contention immediately and I it didn't quite come down to like a you need to choose her or me thing, but I just was not.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 20:40

I was not doing great with the fact that he wasn't being like open about his actions, like I just didn't know what the hell he was doing, and so the trust was kind of not there and he wrote in meantime I meet the man who will become my second husband while I am married to my first husband. We have just a whole Jerry Springer thing going on here, and unbeknownst to me are whirlwind, love affair, star cross. Lovers never felt this way before. It was absolutely the love bombing of a narcissist and I left my first husband like about three months after I met my second husband and he was also married. So my second husband is married and he has sort of permission to play on the side and she doesn't want to hear about it, which nowadays that would be a red flag for me because I'm like I can't trust that she actually knows what you're doing.

Sade Curry: 21:46

Yeah, although she really doesn't want to know, right.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 21:51

So I don't trust like anything about the way that we met. Like I've been able to piece together some more of this behind the scenes narrative and he was very crafty in how we met and there's it's a multi layered, very abusive approach to how we met. But I thought he was just the bees knees and amazing and my soulmate and just in love right Took him. He kept telling me that he was going to leave his wife, which again I think I think you might be able to hear my little kitten friend here Sorry about that, if you can hear the squeaking no, sorry. He keeps saying like I want to be with you, I want to be monogamous with you, I don't want to be married to my wife anymore. Like we haven't been really in love or passionate for years and I never thought I would get a second chance.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 22:53

And you know he's telling me all these beautiful stupid things, shade. And here's the. Here's the part I don't love. I was 23. He was 41. And I fully believe that if he could have found a younger target, he would have like this guy was just cruising around, okay, cupid, looking for the most naive little baby deer he could find.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 23:18

And it was me Love that for me. So eventually he did get divorced. I moved in with him and overnight, once I moved in, we basically stopped having sex. And he always had a reason. He's like I lost my job which, yeah, that's legit. I'm processing my divorce also legit. But you left your wife for me, so shouldn't you be excited that I'm here? Why aren't we doing it? And it just became a thing like just sex tanked immediately and it took me forever to figure out. Oh, that was like part of the abuse. Yeah, because then whenever I would get sort of unhappy in our relationship, we would have a bunch of sex and then it would drop off again like we're talking 81012 weeks with no sex and very minimal like physical affection at all.

Sade Curry: 24:18

Yeah, it can be a form of control. Yes, I. It's like the person who controls all the money. It's like I have all the money and I dole it out to you as I please. Same thing with sex it's like I control the sex and I dole it out to you as I please.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 24:35

Yes, absolutely, and he was. I'm just going to follow my little train of thought. I just realized I didn't take my ADHD meds today, so we're just gonna just going to do some parkour. He was very into the idea of a threesome and group sex with multiple women.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 24:54

But if I said anything about like well, that makes me feel kind of jealous, because if you have the sexual appetite for group sex, why aren't we having sex? Like why am I alone? Not enough for you. But like you're totally on board for a three way if I just bring a friend home and he never really had a good answer to that, yeah, but it was just sort of like be well, because that excites him. And if I had anything to say about it, he said that I was shaming him and that made me a bad partner, because a good partner should be good, giving in game to try what their partner wants. And I would be game if you would have a regular amount of sex with me. But you're like denying me all of it and then saying like no, I have these great appetites for fun kinky stuff over here.

Sade Curry: 25:45

Yeah. So if you think about you, know yourself, you know those years 20, 21, 22, 23. What were, what were they like? Like what was happening internally, not just within the relationship with you know, not just the relationship that Caitlin was in, but the. It's almost like a developmental, almost like a developmental stage, like what? What were your thoughts about yourself? Or did you even have room to think about yourself, to look inward, Not really.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 26:26

The extent of my personal development was like weight loss. I was very committed to losing weight at that time. So I'm now three years four years in recovery from an eating disorder. So I didn't understand that I had an eating disorder back then. So it was all about the weight loss and like that was the only thing I could even see that would make me happier or more fulfilled, or something was being thinner, because being thinner meant being loved, meant my mom's approval, meant all these other things.

Sade Curry: 27:03

Yeah.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 27:04

And that was really the extent of it. I don't know what my personality was. I that makes sense. That's a really big question. I look back and I'm like I don't know, I just did things. I got my masters, I got jobs, I just performed. But there was very little of like me having a personality.

Sade Curry: 27:35

Yeah, that resonates and it's so common with people who are in those types of relationships and some of them go in with a personality, but then the bigger personalities in the relationship some like, squeeze it down, or some people especially if you've experienced trauma or dysfunctional childhood you come in looking for a personality or looking for a definition and there's almost this sense of and I don't know if this resonates with you the most sense of being on autopilot, Like hit it somewhere.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 28:08

Yes, I know, when I get there, I was trying to follow a script Like here's what you do. I graduated college, I went to grad school, I got married and I bought a car, yeah. And then, yeah, still did not feel done Like I was supposed to feel like an adult at that point, which that's hilarious, oh sweet baby me 21 thinking like oh, I'm done, I'm grown. I am now 35 and I just wake up in the morning I'm like I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, nobody knows. That's the secret. Nobody knows. We were just winging it.

Sade Curry: 28:48

Everyone is totally just winging it. I do believe that there is a sense of ownership. I think adulting is when you feel like you own your life, Not that you know what you're doing, but you feel like I mean charge. Here, this little boundary, right here the circle, here I mean charge.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 29:06

That feels really good.

Sade Curry: 29:08

Yeah.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 29:08

I bet you have that. I do. I do have that. I've never had more of like my shit together.

Sade Curry: 29:14

Yeah, love it. So what happened? How long did the second marriage last?

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 29:19

OK, so both relationships total from like dating to divorce were about six and a half years, which has me very superstitious. But the so first marriage we dated three years and then we were married for like oh, where are we Hang on, my math might be wrong Roughly dated three years, married three years and then, with the second one, we started dating in 2011 and got married in 2016. So we dated for five years and then our marriage was about 18 months before I was like I am so out, goodbye. And I actually left very spectacularly, like he was overseas. He was not in the country because I could not have left.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 30:20

If he was in the same room as me, he would have talked to me into staying a second time, because I tried to leave him once and he's very charming and very apologetic and knows exactly what to say and, like the first time that I like confessed to him, I'm like I was going to leave you because I feel like you're abusing me. I feel terrible in these aspects and he was like I had no idea and I'm so sorry and I was wrapped up in my own things and I didn't even notice that they were impacting you and that's on me and my god, when you hear this after so long and you think that they're doing it on purpose, to hear that it was an accident and that they never meant to hurt you like that and that they love you so much and it hurts them to have hurt you, you're like, oh, thank god, thank god, this was all a mistake the relief. And then it gets better for a couple months and then it went right downhill again and I'm like this sucks, this fucking sucks. I was so ready, I knew I was right and then I thought I was wrong and I spent a lot of time in therapy trying to figure out why I was bad at my marriage.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 31:50

He actually had me convinced that none of my problems with him were actually with him. It was a shadow of him I had constructed in my mind because he would never do the things that I was accusing him of. He would never act like that, and so I thought I was psychotic. I was daydreaming about going to an inpatient facility. I was like maybe that would help me, maybe I just need a break. Like maybe I'm just really stressed. I thought I was severely mentally ill.

Sade Curry: 32:30

That's just such a leaf out of the narcissistic abuse book. It is To convince not just the victim but the people around them that there's something wrong with them.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 32:43

Yeah. So when I left he was visiting his family in Ireland and he had already set up the story. He said Caitlin's on some new medication and I think it's really changing their personality. And so it was already primed Because he had already started seating this story at home.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 33:06

Like he picked up, it's Lexa Pro, 10 milligrams of Lexa Pro. Like this is not hard stuff, this is a basic anti-depressant. And he picked it up and goes this might be the best thing that ever happened to you and the worst thing that ever happened to me. I'm like do you think you're in a TV show right now? Who says that? Like just in their living room, everything was like a theatrical production with him and it was like I don't know he's playing a part. And I stopped playing the part when I went on these meds and the fog lifted and I was like I'm not crazy, he's abusing the shit out of me. This guy just wakes up and starts gaslighting and just goes to bed at night and it's like I guess I can get a rest from gaslighting the shit out of my wife. Oh my god.

Sade Curry: 34:00

Oh my god, it's hard to imagine that there are people out in the world who think like that. Yeah, when you don't think like that, it's just really hard to like well, but why would a person do that? Why would a person wake up in the morning and then gaslight the people they say they love all day Like who gets anything out of that? There are some people who do get a lot out of that.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 34:19

I know and I'm like no, I don't want anything to do with you. If I get like a whiff of that behavior from somebody, I'm out and I could be wrong, but I don't care because I'm protecting me.

Sade Curry: 34:30

Oh, my goodness, yes, yes, and it's one of the things that people who have been in abusive relationships struggle with for a while is the legitimacy Like. It's almost like I have to establish exactly what their problem was to make it legitimate for me to leave.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 34:51

That's so big, that part where you're like I wish I had a reason. I actually found myself doing that with my first husband and I was like I am so unhappy and I want to be out of this. I wish he would hit me, yeah, or cheat on me, or like I just had a list and I told him that once, yeah, and his response was not great and we don't need to get into it. But yeah, I just wished that I had a reason, yeah.

Sade Curry: 35:25

And so I think at the time that I was learning about abuse and I stick abuse this was 2015, 2016. So of course, the conversation has matured a lot in many ways now, but at that time many of us were like, ok, can we get a diagnosis? If I could just get a diagnosis of NPD, which, for good reasons, the mental health establishment really doesn't like to give that diagnosis because, one, there's no treatment for it, so it doesn't make sense to diagnose something you can't treat. It's like. I don't blame them they generally will not diagnose a person with NPD for the most part but here all of us in these little chat rooms trying to figure out how to get a diagnosis. It's like you can leave a person if they're being a jerk to you.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 36:12

You can leave any relationship at any time, for any reason.

Sade Curry: 36:15

Yes, yes, they don't have to have a permission slip.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 36:22

That part you really don't. Being deeply unhappy is a reason, yeah, yeah, and just being like, no, I'm not doing it today. One of the things that got me out of there was we actually tried to get pregnant for 18 months. So I spent a good long while crying every four weeks because all the tests were negative and just one day I thought could I raise a baby with this guy? And then I thought, no, I have to take care of him already. So there's no way. If he can't take care of himself, he's not going to take care of a baby and that's all going to be on me. And I'm already doing all the things Because once again, I'm doing the cooking and the cleaning and the domestic labor 93% of it. I'll give him a few extra percent over the first guy.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 37:22

No-transcript, yeah, no. And so I say like I never. I was never pregnant with this baby, but my baby saved my life, because I realized that if I had stayed with him and gotten pregnant and had, like, I would have been lost. This person who is talking to you right now would not exist. I would be totally lost.

Sade Curry: 37:45

Yeah, and to give yourself the kudos for seeing that. And I think sometimes you're not doing this, but sometimes we're looking back at our past selves and looking at all the mistakes they made and like. But in some ways they also did some really good things. They decided not to have a baby with a narcissist. Yeah.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 38:10

Yeah, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that I did not have a baby with that man and I'm so glad that I left and I'm glad that I let myself be the most important thing, like for once in my life.

Sade Curry: 38:25

Yeah, 100%, and that's our biggest responsibility. If you can, let's just be responsible for this one. Be responsible for yourself first before trying to be responsible for all the other people. So when did your growth journey begin, like the journey that led you to choosing a healthy relationship, making changes within yourself, maturing, like? Did that begin while you were in one of these relationships or did it begin after?

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 38:55

I marked it as happening like when I left him, so like since that day, that is like my freedom day. I celebrate it every year. I take that day off work, I watch TV and drink mimosas. That is what I do on March 17th every year.

Sade Curry: 39:14

Amazing.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 39:16

I've been in five years and a few months now and, yeah, it started that day and I've dated. I did like some casual dating, aka I call that Sleddy Caitlin volume one and Sleddy Caitlin volume two. I had a couple of long-term relationships in there. I was nonmonogamous. I had a boyfriend I lived with and a girlfriend and I would like stay with her, like once a week overnight, and then sort of like weekends. We would like trade. Sometimes she would come and stay at our place and sometimes I would go stay with her. And those were good relationships at the time. Like they kind of ran their course. I don't think they were really meant to be forever, which is okay, like I'm getting there with those. Sometimes I'm still, like you know, kind of salty about it, but mostly all good.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 40:19

And then, in like a fit of being so tired of Tinder, I deleted all my apps and I said I'm going to meet somebody in person. I've never met anybody in person in my life. Like romantically, I was always an online dater. And within a couple of days, my favorite bar posted that they were doing speed dating and so I signed up for speed dating and when the day came around, I was like I do not want to leave my house. I feel gross. I haven't showered, I've been wearing this t-shirt for two days, and so I decided well, fuck it. If somebody likes me with my greasy hair and my two day old t-shirt, then here we go, speed dating. So I went to speed dating, met my partner. This was February 2020, right before COVID, and now we own a house, love it how long after you left?

Sade Curry: 41:12

was that? I think you said it, but I didn't do the math.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 41:16

Roughly two years, so about two years after I left my abuser is when I met my partner now, and we've been together for just about three and a half years.

Sade Curry: 41:28

Yeah, what changed in those two years? Like, how, like how did you I mean because you can't, I mean, I know maybe you can just like snap your fingers Right, healthy relationship. I don't know, maybe it's possible but like what changed? How was your thinking different, or how was your, what you were attracted to different, or those are fair questions.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 41:52

So I have what I call the Yikes rule and or the three Yikes rule, which is that if anybody makes me uncomfortable for any reason, I don't have to figure it out. Like you know, we were talking about, I need to exactly diagnose the specific problem before I can say that this is a red flag or not. Anything that made me go like I don't like that. That's the Yikes. You get three, and then I'm like I'm not, not doing this anymore, and so I kind of honed that skill through all of my slutty adventures. Like I'm texting somebody and if they just text you out of nowhere, like can I be graphic on your podcast? Yes, and they're just like do you like anal? And that's like the very first thing they say to me. I'm like you're gone, get out, yikes, yep, um.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 42:42

I went on a date with a guy and we talked for two hours or so, like in this coffee shop, we're having this whole conversation, and he just abruptly kind of got up and put his coat on and was like this has been great, um, but like I got to go and I'll talk to you later, and I'm like okay, sure, and I like messaged him on Tinder after the fact and I'm like, hey, thanks for hanging out and coffee, like hope the rest of your day was okay. Um, seemed like you left quickly, like is everything okay? And he said, yeah, you just seem like you weren't into it. So I left and my abuser had hit me with one of those and I went full font. I was like no, oh my God, I'm so upset that you would. Yeah, I love you. Oh my God, I was not doing that a second time. So I was just like, okay, bye, yeah, fuck off, I'm not doing it. I don't have the patience, yeah, to like tango with your bullshit subtext. I can't anymore, I am tired.

Sade Curry: 43:43

Yeah.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 43:44

And I'm not doing it, and my partner just had Nariah yikes, nothing. We have had maybe one to two, not even fights, but just like prickly moments in three and a half years, and we talk about them and we're both just very open with each other. Another thing that has helped me is realizing that I'm autistic, and so when we started dating, I had a PowerPoint this is how to love me. Here you go, I love it. And he studied it and he took it very seriously and he learned how to communicate with me and he was like wait, am I autistic? No, he also knows that he's autistic, and so we have this shared language where he'll talk to me and make references to movies and film, because that's something that he can express himself with, and I'm like I'm over here, I don't know, I'm just over here being like a big cloud who loves stuff, and we have learned to communicate and we can be so direct and open about communication because we have that neurodivergent language.

Sade Curry: 45:02

Amazing.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 45:03

And, like all the relationships that came before this one, were masked. I was always trying to act normal, trying to be good wife, good girlfriend. And now I'm just like this is me, do you like it? And he's like, yes, I like it. And he's like this is me, do you like it? And I say yes, I like it. Simple.

Sade Curry: 45:21

How simple.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 45:23

It's so good. It's so good I never have to wonder. And another thing is there's no math. I don't have to sit here and be like well, this is what he got me for my birthday, so I need to make sure that I get him something of equal value. He doesn't. He doesn't keep track of anything. Yeah, like my ex did, because my ex would have to win. Like if I gave him a really great Christmas gift, he would order me more stuff, wow, to even it. And I'm like that. I didn't, I didn't make you this so that you would buy me more things, and they weren't even like really thoughtful gifts. He would just go like buy stuff to like get the numbers and feel like he won Christmas. And there's no math, like I don't have to keep track, I don't have to pretend to be anything or perform anything, and it's also really helpful.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 46:19

We live with roommates, so four of us all went in on a house together, because in this economy, that's how we decide to do that, and having other people around also helps me, because I can compare, I can be like well, would I say this to my roommate? And then that helps me say it as directly to my partner, because I'm like this, I don't have to act any kind of way because we're in a romantic relationship. Like I can be as direct and forthcoming to you, to you, to you, and like if I need reassurance, I can ask the whole room, and everybody in the room will reassure me that I am welcome and I am loved and I am safe, and this I always go back to. Like this example is one of my roommates was doing I don't know doing something and he like knocked a shelf on the wall and I gasped like it startled me, and then I immediately apologized because my abuser like would have freaked out. He would have been like it's fine, why are you freaking out? Just immediate. Anything he could just like stomp on, he would. Is that not exhausting? Don't you want to break from just being mean to me? Yeah, he loved it, he thrived on it, it was delicious cookies for him.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 47:43

But my roommates, like what are you apologizing? And this happens probably still like once every couple of weeks. I get like just a weird look because I have apologized for something that does not require it and would not, in like any circumstance of normal operation, require an apology, and so that's just nice to have people that'll look at you and be like no, that one was weird, try it again. And I'm like oh, I am not sorry that I asked you for a refill. I'm not apologizing for that at all and it's just freaking nice.

Sade Curry: 48:18

Yeah.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 48:19

To have people like around me, who know that I've been through trauma and who are very patient with me and very willing to remind me that I'm safe.

Sade Curry: 48:29

Yeah, that's so good. It's like the shift was centering yourself in your life and in your relationships and then really learning to choose people who let you take up that space.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 48:45

Yes that's a huge part. It's you know. You remember, with my first husband I was like, well, nobody else is ever gonna love me so like this will do. And now I'm like I am a shiny beacon of awesomeness who wants some. But if you treat me like crap, you have to leave. And that has changed everything. Like I love me more than I have ever loved me, and because I love me and I know me, I also know what it means to be loved as me, if that makes any sense. I feel like I just said that in a big circle.

Sade Curry: 49:21

Okay, it makes total sense. I'm resonating with it and I know the listeners are resonating with this because really, this is a lot of our journeys. Yes, so good. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 49:37

Thank you for having me.

Sade Curry: 49:38

I mean so openly, so good, I do wanna talk about your work. Yeah, let's, because your work is kind of spectacular, thank you. I wanna make room for that Only because there's something healing about writing our stories. There's something healing about creativity. I try to bring creativity into my day-to-day life. It can be a little bit of an effort because of my own personal history, like some constant, like okay, you got to do some art, got to get in some nature, do some writing. So tell us about your work. What do you do? Who do you help?

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 50:13

with it. Yes, okay, I love to help specifically neurodivergent people because that's me Like. I have ADHD, I'm autistic and a lot of us have spent so much of our lives like trying to mask and blend in and be like other people and then we get sort of shamed for being weird and so my work in this world is to be like no, no, no, open the weird back up. We got to make it weird because humanity is multifaceted and creative and weird and we connect by telling stories. And I want more autistic authors on the shelf. I want more queer writers on the shelf. I want more BIPOC authors on the shelf. I want more people who are not like old, dead white men who are celebrated as, like the literary marker of success. Like I don't, I'm sorry, I don't care about Dickens, he's gone. We can talk about him like a little bit, but like I think even Shakespeare would be like why are you guys so obsessed with me? You need to stop. And there's so much richness and diversity in the world and in the lived experience of people. And so I'm just sitting here like a little Venus fly trap, being like does anybody want to write a book? And then I like, try and bring them in. And I'm like you could totally write a book. I'm going to help you.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 51:32

And yeah, like more people can and should write books, we have this feeling or this sense of being like well, I'm not, like I'm not the type of person to write a book. What does that mean? That's fake. Anybody can write a book. If you have a story to tell, I can help you turn it into a book. And even if you don't quite understand the through line of the story that you want to tell, I can help you organize that.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 52:02

Like I'm very good at taking sort of like a pile of ideas and saying like, oh, you're writing about this. Like you're writing about what it means to be loved, writing about what it means to stop looking into everyone else around you as a mirror and actually look at yourself. That's what you're writing about. And they're like, oh, I didn't know I was writing about that. That's cool. I'm like, yeah, get those words down.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 52:27

And I do this. I work with people one-on-one on their books and I also have an incubator which is like a group setting small group cohorts and we critique each other's writing and there's coaching calls so you can come and like get questions and everybody in there is like best friends with each other, because I only attract cool people writing cool books and we're all like, okay, great, your first chapters were awesome. I'm gonna need you to write more because I need to read it and that's so encouraging because the biggest fear I think the biggest fear about writing a book is that it won't be good, people won't want to hear it, that it won't be popular enough and like what is popular enough yeah, again, fake.

Sade Curry: 53:12

Fake, that's a high school wounding, that's still with us it is.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 53:16

it is Like when you have like a high school teacher who's like this essay wasn't very creative, was it? Then you take that wound with you forever and you're like I'm not a very creative writer. No, I swear to God, if you spend an hour with me, it'll be back your passion, your love for writing. You will believe in yourself. You will be like I'm gonna write a series about elemental magicians who live on a planet in outer space. I mean, we live on a planet in outer space, but yeah, and I love that and I really wanted.

Sade Curry: 53:50

I'm glad you kind of like gave us the nitty-gritty of it because I am a fan of divorce stories. I just I'm like I want more divorce stories on the shelf. I want more women and sometimes when I read a memoir, biography about people or books about their careers and then there's a little sliver in there about their relationship that didn't work out, I'm like no, no, no, that part right, there is a whole book that you want to read. Yes, I want, I'm like a divorce. It's like divorce breakups they're everywhere, but they're like this little dark corner, shameful secret. That, yeah, no it's just life.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 54:29

It is. It is just life. I'm working on a memoir about it's kind of about body image and like generational trauma with regard to that. It's called Fat Light Grandma and cause that was always like my mother's threat, right, I'd be like, can I have a snack? She's like do you want to be Fat Light Grandma? And now I'm, I am, I am Fat Light Grandma, so like I'm gonna sell a million books, mom, good luck.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 54:53

And so I've been looking through like ancestrycom to like get to know my grandmother's side of the family, cause she died when I was like 12, 13-ish and I never knew my grandfather and we didn't really have like a big extended family like I had on my dad's side. And so as I'm going through these records, I was seeing a lot of divorce and historically, divorce has not been super possible for women. And so I'm sitting here and I'm like look at all these divorces and I saw that as something awesome. I saw that as like a lineage of women saying like I'm not putting up with this and finding a way out. I'm like that's dope.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 55:40

I want to read that book too, I know I'm going to have to write too. I'm going to have to write Divorce like grandma, Divorce like that. It's just going to be like a series of memoirs about my grandma Amazing.

Sade Curry: 55:51

Amazing.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 55:53

I love the idea of like divorce story, divorce memoir. Like yeah, we should, we can't just tell stories about falling in love. Like we have to tell stories and model what it looks like to recognize when you're in an unhealthy relationship, whether that's abusive or toxic, or even just like two people who it's not working.

Sade Curry: 56:11

Yeah Right, and stories that celebrate the ordinariness of a healthy relationship.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 56:18

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a huge whirlwind romance Like I just want to normalize kind of mundane being in love.

Sade Curry: 56:27

Yeah, I love it. It's the mundane. It's literally my husband and I we're going to. We're going to a blues festival tonight. It's St Louis, so it's not a big deal. It sounds bigger than it is.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 56:40

It's just in St.

Sade Curry: 56:41

Louis. Well, look me up next time you're here I will. So we're going to go after work and we're going to drive down to the river and we're going to sit and listen to music. Neither one of us is like a big music fan, but we're just going to be out. It's going to be warm. We're probably going to get something to eat at home before we go. We don't want to buy a $20. So that, even though we can, but we don't want to, yeah, we're going to eat and then we're going to drive and then we're going to sit and be warm and listen to music. That we could take or leave.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 57:16

It's just nice to do it, and then we're going to come home, and that's amazing. Yeah, and the whole time you're just like this is fine, and I love this guy, you know, yeah, yeah.

Sade Curry: 57:29

Yeah, Celebrating those all stories I think need to be celebrated and we need to change the stories we do celebrate. I think in the world today and it sounds like you are part of that charge, so you know, well done. I know people listening are like, yeah, I want to hear my, I want to write my story and have been inspired to come hang out with me.

Sade Curry: 57:55

So let's let's tell the listeners where they can find you, like if they do want to work with you. They want to learn more. Get on your email list. Your email list is awesome, by the way.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 58:04

Thank you, I didn't know that you got my emails. I feel popular, yes, yes, so you can catch me on Instagram at CaitlynLizFisher. I will make sure that correctly spelled Caitlyn is in Chaudes show notes.

Sade Curry: 58:20

Yeah, what was spelled? For those who just want to hear it, it's a.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 58:24

C-A-I-T-L-I-N-L-I-Z-F-I-S-H-E-R. Like Carrie Fisher actually legally changed my name to Fisher in her honor after my divorce.

Sade Curry: 58:36

Amazing.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 58:37

So yeah, we could do another one, so that's. Instagram. What about your website? My website is CaitlynLizFishercom Easy, and I am on Facebook. That is like. My professional page is also CaitlynLizFisher, but you can just find me by looking at CaitlynFisher. I am a Chaudes Facebook friend, so if you see a mutual, that's me. Where else am I? If you're interested in my writing incubator, that's workingtitlestudiocom. And yeah, that's a lot of links On all the links.

Sade Curry: 59:10

We'll be in the show notes, so take a moment, go to the show notes. Connect with Caitlin on the interwebs. They are awesome, we are. I didn't say this in the beginning, but we are in a money container together. Yes, yeah, we're in the boom room, yes, and it's been fun watching, sharing in your journey, sharing my journey, and they're hanging out and I just want to say I appreciate you taking the time out to do this today. Thank you so much.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 59:38

I really appreciate. It's funny because I don't need your dating advice, but I like following you and seeing everything that you post and talk about and just seeing you be in love and happy and thriving in your relationship and talking about how that has changed in your life and, yeah, I love being connected to you. So big thanks to Serena Hicks for bringing us together.

Sade Curry: 1:00:02

Yes, yay, Serena. All right, we're going to wrap up. Listeners, we really, really appreciate your time and attention today. We'll see you next time, Caitlin. Thank you again and I will see you next time.

Caitlin Liz Fisher: 1:00:13

Bye.