In this episode, Jamie Milam shares her journey through divorce, offering wisdom for those navigating the entangled paths of real estate, mental health, and the exhilarating leap back into dating post-divorce. My conversation with Jamie dives into the intricacies of post-trauma dating. We share stories of moving cities and life transitions, underpinning the theme that change, although challenging, can be the catalyst for profound self-discovery.
We explore the essence of modern relationships – communication and boundaries. With my own dating experiences on the table, we discuss the dance of articulating and respecting needs and expectations, whether in fleeting romances or the pursuit of lasting companionship. Jamie and I lay bare the continuous journey of emotional resilience and the transformative power of open dialogue, providing a relatable narrative for anyone striving to forge meaningful connections in the wake of divorce.
Featured on the Show: Jamie Milam
On her own since the age of 15, overcoming drug addiction when she learned she'd become a mother at 19, rebuilding her life from a single storage tote, to now running 3 businesses, Jamie Milam’s superpower is determination through awareness. Jamie is also divorcee, Realtor, podcast host of Divorced & Determined AF and founder of the P.E.A.C.E. of Mind initiative, all with the mission to empower women to embrace internal and external awareness to make peacefully aligned decisions so they can live the life they desire and deserve.
In this episode, Jamie Milam shares her journey through divorce, offering wisdom for those navigating the entangled paths of real estate, mental health, and the exhilarating leap back into dating post-divorce. My conversation with Jamie dives into the intricacies of post-trauma dating. We share stories of moving cities and life transitions, underpinning the theme that change, although challenging, can be the catalyst for profound self-discovery.
We explore the essence of modern relationships – communication and boundaries. With my own dating experiences on the table, we discuss the dance of articulating and respecting needs and expectations, whether in fleeting romances or the pursuit of lasting companionship. Jamie and I lay bare the continuous journey of emotional resilience and the transformative power of open dialogue, providing a relatable narrative for anyone striving to forge meaningful connections in the wake of divorce.
Featured on the Show: Jamie Milam
On her own since the age of 15, overcoming drug addiction when she learned she'd become a mother at 19, rebuilding her life from a single storage tote, to now running 3 businesses, Jamie Milam’s superpower is determination through awareness. Jamie is also divorcee, Realtor, podcast host of Divorced & Determined AF and founder of the P.E.A.C.E. of Mind initiative, all with the mission to empower women to embrace internal and external awareness to make peacefully aligned decisions so they can live the life they desire and deserve.
Hello everyone, welcome back to the dating after a divorce podcast. Happy new year. You won't get this on the first of the year. However, this is my first guest podcast recording in 2024. I'm excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague, jamie Mylon. Jamie is a realtor podcast host of Divorced and Determined AF, so definitely check that out. She's also the founder of the Peace of Mind Initiative. They have a mission to empower women to embrace internal and external awareness, to make peacefully aligned decisions so they can live the life they desire and deserve. Welcome to the podcast, jamie. It's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I just love what you're doing in this space. I'm excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. I wanted to ask you to just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and about the Peace of Mind Initiative, because I know you have some fun stuff going on over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so my bread and butter. I'm a realtor and I was working on an educational piece for my clients that need to sell their home in a divorce. I'm also a certified divorce specialist. As a part of that research with women, I realized how much they were really needing and wanting a resource center that encompassed elements that are around the legalities, the financials, the real estate stuff, the mental health, the lifestyle. I mean dating after divorce, right, you know how a professional organizer can help them all these different resources in one space, with a vetted out professional directory as well. So the Peace of Mind Initiative is just that. It's a resource center with tons of handouts. It's ever growing. We're still adding to it on a regular basis and as a part of that joint effort is the podcast divorce and determined AF. So I'm super excited. Anybody that's interested can head over to peaceofminddivorceinfo and it's a complete free resource center for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's such important work Like having been through divorce, walking women through divorce, Like I know, like we're pulling things from everywhere that just hasn't been available before. I know I didn't have a lot of these resources available to me during my divorce. Funny, slightly heartbreaking Side side story At the time that I separated from my ex, we own two homes and I just wasn't aware enough or on it at all, and I didn't really think it was going to end in divorce that I allowed him to sell one of the homes during the separation and then in the end I realized, oh my God, he's keeping our marital home. So I was the one out of a home looking for a place to live.
Speaker 2:And that's just it right.
Speaker 2:Divorce is so overwhelming as it is that even the best of us who are planners or researchers and super intentional on staying organized I mean, there's some real, you know, biological things happening in our brain.
Speaker 2:We can't function and make decisions the way that we normally would amongst this overwhelm and so having to, you know, switch back and forth between all of these different websites and blogs and all of that it just felt like. And how do we know what's AI generated these days? You know, I wanted a place for these women to have access to something that is vetted out, reliable information from professionals working in the industry, without feeling like they had to go and find the right attorney's blog to look at, you know the, and have to switch back and forth. And you're right, it's just so overwhelming in the number of things that women say I wish I had known. Man, it's just time to make sure that we are all having this conversation, because there's a ton more of us out there than we all think. There's like this secret, underground club of divorcee and we don't know that we're about to join it until we're in it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I mean I'm starting to think it's a little bit of a fun club, like seriously, like I think after you've been through what you're like oh, life isn't what we thought, and it's almost like you embrace this new, interesting journey of freedom and way of being in the world that I just really love being on the other side. But yeah, let's dive into your story. I'm super excited to hear it. I haven't heard a lot of it. I always love like my own, like on the spot reaction. So let's talk a little bit about your divorce, like what happened there with your first marriage and how did you come to be in the dating pool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, in a nutshell, I would say that I probably didn't know myself very well when I first got married. I have done things a lot of backwards, so I've been on my own since I was 15. I overcame drug addiction at the age of 19, whenever I found out I was going to become a mother. And then I became a mom at 19. And I would say I think it was about six years later or so I started to date somebody that I had known in high school, that was a high school crush of mine, and at that point I had undergone so many different abusive relationships. You know, I'm also a victim of sexual violence, and so I think at the time we treated each other the best that either of us had been treated in a relationship before, and so we saw that as oh, this is what love is. And you know, I think that from that point we didn't ever really dig into what one another's deeper values were and have a real understanding and alignment. I think we thought we did, but in hindsight I just think that that was lacking, and then we just grew apart. We really, you know, each of us kind of in our own growth stages. You know of our own, like professions and just our personal growth. I think the gap just got really wide.
Speaker 2:So I'm very fortunate, still to this day, that our divorce was not a knockout drag out you know, nasty kind of divorce. In fact it was actually very simple. You know, we went we basically had our stuff, you know, on a Google Doc when we went to mediation. The biggest aspect that we dealt with in mediation was how to handle, you know, the child aspect of everything co-parenting, because he did adopt my son a few years after we got married. So you know, I'm glad that that was simple.
Speaker 2:Now, even the most simplest of divorces still have their issues that come up over time and things that you didn't recall. You know you weren't even thinking about including right, or you wish you, kind of, would have done different. Now you have this black and white agreement and then, of course, emotions start to unpack and we each have different timelines for unpacking them. Some of us do that through therapy and others don't, and so it can come across, you know, a bit dirty.
Speaker 2:In fact, when I did first get back into the dating pool, I had a phone call within 24 hours from my ex telling me that somebody sent him a screenshot. He said, oh, I didn't realize that you were, you know, on the dating apps, and I'm like I had literally only downloaded one, I hadn't even finished my profile completely and it was well within 24 hours. And he said somebody sent him a screenshot. And I was like, okay, if somebody did, then that was in the last 24 hours, because I literally just downloaded it yesterday, you know, but it did feel like a violation of, you know, my privacy, even though I knew it's public and I didn't blame somebody for sending him a screenshot. I'm sure that one of my girlfriends would have done the same. So it is what it is, but, yeah, that's how I ended up back in the dating pool.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How long were you married the first time? Yeah, so we were married for almost seven years together, for eight and a half Almost, or about nine years actually. Yeah, it's a long time. Yeah, I mean, it was definitely the longest relationship I'd been in.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting that you know you had said that it was the best relationship you'd been in up to that point, and how sometimes we can misjudge a relationship because it looks and feels so good compared to where we've been.
Speaker 2:Especially for trauma victims. You know I mean, don't get me wrong I think everybody has a degree of trauma in their life. You know even the best of families, right there's. You think that you know over-discipline or micromanage, or you know somebody just being really present as a parent. You know that child might feel a certain way about that. You know feel like they have to. You know achieve at a high level, or you know have perfection mentality, you know. So I definitely think that trauma can come from anything, but especially, you know, as a domestic and sexual violence victim and that's not even, you know, uncovering the even deeper depths of that it really can become difficult for you to dig in to yourself. You're just going through the motions and I think for decades I was really just in survival mode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and survival mode. Your brain, like 90% of your brain, is just trying to keep you safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just going through the motions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, going through the motions, there are threats everywhere, it sees threats everywhere, or it's trying to prevent threats, trying to get you safe and secure, and it's just really hard to find that space to just say, okay, now, what do I want to do with myself, who am I, what do I love, what are my passions like? Or even self-championing, advocating for yourself. There's just not enough energy available to do those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know we were living in the same town that I had really grown up in, which is a small town of like 16,000 people still to this day, and, whether it's my own projection or whether there was any truth to it, when you have made so many mistakes you know, self-perceived mistakes you start to feel like people you know again, as a former drug user, you start to feel like people only identify you as such, and so you feel like you're stuck in this box. Well, we moved away just a few months after we got married to a whole new city, and so I really think that that helps me kind of open up to okay, now let me explore who I am and kind of felt like a little bit of a fresh start versus. You know, I think that he kind of got used to knowing me in that space as well, and so I think that there were many different layers to that. But, yeah, taking the time and feeling stable and secure enough to explore those parts of yourself and feeling like you're worthy enough to do that.
Speaker 2:You know I've been a caregiver full-time caregiver my entire adulthood. You know my son's getting ready to turn 18 in February and heading off to college in the fall and you know I'm still a little bit like what am I gonna do with that piece of me, you know? But finally stepping into this space to say that I'm worth being able to dig into and to start to forgive myself and to start relieving some of that pressure, at the same time of being really excited about personal growth methods. And you know, that's when you start to see where some values maybe align and they don't align and where you know some really big interests that you would expect in a partnership, whether they exist or not. And it starts to become a lot more glaring when one person is doing a lot more work on themself and again, I think it's because I needed to do that work. You know he may have known himself the entire time and I can't speak to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So after the divorce, were you excited to date? Were you like never again?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fascinating, because I was definitely that person who was like I think I could live the rest of my life without a man.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, there would be a couple of times that I was like, oh, maybe I'll have a few of them and I'll just rotate through them. And you know, before my divorce I had definitely told my girlfriends I'm like I am so glad that I don't have to date again, like if you ever see me on one of those dating apps, slap the phone out of my hand and put me in a corner, like I don't want to be on them. So about four or five months after my divorce, I very explicitly remember saying to my therapist one night like okay, I have to talk to you about something, and it's gonna sound like TMI, but I don't know where else to go with this. But yeah, so my vagina apparently has a woken and she's like screaming at me and I don't know what to do about this. So can you help me? Because I am not. I don't think that I was ready to like start exploring this, but I don't know what to do here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean those needs don't go away.
Speaker 2:Well, they certainly feel like they do when you're in a marriage that you're not tending to those needs.
Speaker 1:Well, that's partly because you know you're not tending to them, or partly because your brain is just, it's all the energies in survival mode, or it's in healing heartbreak or whatever period of growth you were in, but it's there.
Speaker 2:You know, what's fascinating is that I also in hindsight you know I started well before our divorce. You know we were doing marriage therapy, but I also had started individual therapy and a huge part of the reason why I did that was for individual therapy was because I felt like I couldn't hear my gut feeling anymore. I wasn't in tune to an intuition and that was something that I told my therapist I really really wanted Like I don't feel a gut feeling, I'm questioning every decision, every thought, like I don't know what's real, what's not, and I don't know how to make a decision right now that feels authentic, because I'm not sure what that is. So we did a lot of work, you know, to pay attention to those somatic feelings and noticing what your body's trying to tell you. And in hindsight I think that my body was trying to tell me something.
Speaker 2:In my marriage, you know, like I think that there was some internal shutdowns and my brain was my brain. I think my emotions were kind of shut off and so my body was trying to shut off from it too. Again, as a sexual violence victim, it's not something that you want to feel like you're just giving that part of yourself if you're not emotionally in it either, you know. So then, after the fact, whenever I felt my body literally feel like it was waking up again you know there was something to that for me I paid attention, I noticed it immediately in my body, which honestly felt so rewarding to see the physical evidence of this work that I'd been doing in therapy, you know, to really recognize like, ah, I do feel the good as much as I feel the bad, triggers too you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we call them glimmers. It's not just triggers. You've got to look for the glimmers that start to show up Every day. Sometimes it's just the sun on your skin in the middle of the day. Even though everything's still crazy, you're like oh yeah, I remember this, this feels good, yeah, amazing, all right. And so your vagina woke up. Talk to your therapist. Then what happened next?
Speaker 2:Well, I did a ton of research on all of these different apps. I am very fortunate that a really good friend of mine from back home we were kind of going through this situation at the same time so we were bouncing, you know, these app issues off of one another and I ended up downloading Bumble because I felt like it gave me the control that I would be looking for. I liked the fact that, you know, men couldn't just message me unless I had started the conversation first. I never was interested in paying the extra fees, like I don't need to see who swiped on me, like I need to make decisions not based on oh well, if they like me, then maybe I'll look at them a little bit harder, you know. Like no, I liked the idea of being able to I'm just gonna say it transparently make slightly a judgment based on physical attraction as well. You know, I didn't really feel like I was ready for a forever partner, but I was ready for companionship and I was ready for something that felt safe, and for me, safe also means having some common interests, but also being transparent about what I'm looking for and what I'm not looking for, and so I was very transparent with that even on my profile. I very clearly said on my profile that I wasn't looking for anything serious. Fwb only is what I had put on there, interestingly, the first swipe.
Speaker 2:Now I had other conversations but the first swipe ended up becoming, you know, back and forth conversation in the app until about a week later. We decided to make some plans for the weekend and a few days before that I started kind of getting a little anxious like oh my gosh, we've made plans for like this entire evening and I've not met him. Like what if this isn't actually gonna vibe, you know, off screen? And so I went out on a limb in like last minute. I was like I know this is super last minute, but would you be interested in meeting up for a quick meet and greet this evening? I have, you know, about an hour and a half max, and then I have other plans, which really my other plans was just to get home to my kid, like normal, you know, but it gave me an out, so that way if I could cancel, I could.
Speaker 2:And he admitted to me that evening that he had to Google what FWB was. I was like, well, I'm assuming that since you've Googled it like, you're okay with it and he's like no, yeah, I get where you're coming from and obviously we you know that was two years ago, surprisingly, you know, and we've had multiple conversations about like where I still stand to this day and I thought that that was important, you know is just to be upfront. I mean some of the other conversations in the apps, they were just dull or just felt itch. You know, this one felt easy and natural and it didn't feel like I had to put in a ton of effort or try really hard for us to be able to keep conversation flowing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how long were you on the app before you met him? I?
Speaker 2:mean I probably swiped on him like this the day after the conversation with my ex, so it had to been like day two, because I hadn't even completed my profile the next day whenever I was having that conversation with my ex and I certainly wasn't completing it afterwards because I was just emotionally drained from the conversation. But we took our conversation in the app, I would say kind of slow at first and I somewhat required a little bit more shy of hold up a newspaper with today's date next to your face kind of thing. You did a lot of qualifying. You were like oh, I did a lot of stalking on the internet to try to find are you who you say you are? That was a huge concern for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love your approach to it, not necessarily because I think a lot of the listeners are on the other side where they're like I don't want any friends with benefits, I don't want that but what I'm always trying to communicate I don't know how well I communicated on the podcast, but certainly with my clients when I have a lot more time to dig into a topic I was like, just because you want one thing or you look at the world one way, doesn't mean everyone else is looking at the world exactly the same way. And I say that because often women will go on the app and they want something. And if a man shows up who isn't that, say, a man shows up and he's more introverted, but they wanted someone who was social. Or the man wants friends with benefits and they don't. They think somehow that that's wrong and it's like a personal attack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's all about setting expectations right, like we have reduced frustrations in that sense, but also I think it's honoring these parts of myself that I knew going into it. You know, first of all, men do it all the time. So what? But not all men, that's the all men. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the point. The point is like some women want friends with benefits and some women don't, some men want friends with benefits and some men don't, and some men when some men want casual dating while some men are looking for marriage and some men are looking for domestic. Yeah, humans are like so diverse. Yeah, so much like. The way I like to say is that every person is a universal to themselves and there's no way to know what a person really wants or to assume what a person should want or would want.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right and I didn't want anybody assuming right and again knowing where I was at in my life you know, my son getting ready to head off to college I knew that I didn't want to create a new long term forever partnership. You know, especially before my son heads off to college. I mean I was so intentional about that. Some people think we're crazy, but it's in our divorce agreement that we can't remarry until he graduates high school. You know, like we can't cohabitate with somebody else until we're married. Well, you can't do that until you can get married to a high school, out of high school. You know we can't have overnights with another partner while we have him. You know and some people think that's crazy but he was 15 when we separated, so we knew that we just had a few more years to go. But to me that was also an accountability measure because he and I both were habitual relationship people and I knew that I really wanted to take this time to reconnect with myself, get to know me, heal me, so that I could show up a better version for myself, for my son and for whoever else would be entering into my life. But most importantly, this time with my son before he leaves. It's irreplaceable. I don't get that time back and the last thing I want is somebody else coming into this space and taking that up between us. You know, and and I knew that that was my expectation you know what the future holds after he goes off to college. Like I still want at least six to eight months after he goes off to college, because that's a whole new me too.
Speaker 2:That's a whole new season of me not having my baby boy with me, who is a huge I mean, our kids are a part of us all right but like I just feel so attached to him because he's what saved my life, you know, and he's such a huge part of my identity and I have to relearn who I am when he's not here. You know, and I have and I don't want to do that even with a positive distraction of a new companion or you know, the distraction of potentially feeling like I'm filling this void with, you know, whoever else might be there with me for forever. So I think a lot of it was really just knowing what I need and what I want and being willing to be forthcoming and communicate that up front and just say, like, what do I have to lose, like, if you're not okay with it, then all right, like I'll move on, and maybe eventually I would have heard enough like, oh, I'm not cool with that, I'm not cool with that. Um, ladies, most men might be okay with it, at least in the beginning.
Speaker 2:And you know what Our, our conversations have changed over two years. You know, and they're allowed to change. I don't have to always want to just stick with FWB. If I want to change the conversation, I'm allowed to honor that with communication as well, and same for him If that changes for him too.
Speaker 1:So is that what you are now? I know you had used the word situation ship when we were kind of prepping. So are you currently like how? Initially you started friends with benefits. How did that morph into? I know you did say like the relationship is exclusive and you don't use labels, but I am going to ask you enough questions to maybe label it. So how, how did you, how did the relationship progress from that first weekend away to where you are now? What's been the evolution?
Speaker 2:Well, it's always nice for me because he would travel back overseas. He moved to the US for work and so he was gone every few months for a month at a time. So it really worked well for me. I know that for a lot of women that might not work, and you know. So over time, I think once he made the decision that he was going to be staying in the US and, you know, looking to transition his visa into a green card, it started to broach that conversation.
Speaker 2:I think you know he was potentially going to be exploring some other options and you know I felt this thing inside of me that was like, oh, I don't know if I actually want that, like that's, I don't know if I'm okay with you exploring other options, like I don't know how to explain it, other than it was the feeling that came about and I had to honor that feeling and communicate that, and we had the conversation about not exploring other options, you know, outside of this, and so we both were in agreement with that. Now I'm just going to be transparent and honest with you that I'm struggling with it in terms of not not, like you know, loyalty and exclusivity aspect of like struggling to maintain that like trust factor, right. But I am struggling with what was fitting for me so well under a different category. It now this exclusive aspect, does make me highlight some of the things that I already kind of felt like wasn't going to be long term alignment for me. But it didn't matter because it fit the box that I needed it to fit at the time. It's kind of highlighting some of those things now and a little bit stronger of a light, and it is a little frustrating for me because I know none of those things have changed.
Speaker 2:I didn't expect for them to change. You know, I wasn't like sitting around hoping and waiting for them to change. It was I accepted those parts of him and those things about him because that I wasn't looking for a long term forever partner and I didn't need him to meet those particular needs. And so I do struggle with it a little bit right now.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, what I've learned the most through this, this relationship, is the absolute importance around communication, because if I'm not communicating with him how I'm feeling, then I start to feel more resentful inside of myself and it's not really resentment against him, it's resentment about the fact that I'm not honoring something that I recognize about myself and yes, it is because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I don't want to risk losing something that I do enjoy and the dynamic that I enjoy it in. So it's definitely fear-based, but I recognize that there is a healthy way to communicate things. He and I we've had some really good practice about communication and the dynamic and some that we've just been like whoa, what a great example of exactly why we need to communicate what's going on, or else we create a new default narrative in our head and we make up more stories about something. So I think that's the biggest piece is just communicating these needs.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, 100 percent, and that's work that I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm married now. I've been married five years, been with my husband six, and that work of communication is just ongoing, that work of knowing yourself, which is literally what I teach in my dating programs, that you've got to know yourself really well in areas that you may not have thought you needed to know, and then you have to really develop the emotional resilience and the courage to authentically put that out there, whether it's putting it out there on your profile or putting it out there when you're talking to a partner or when you're asking for what you want, which asking for what you want is appropriate in different ways, different stages of the relationship. But that part of knowing yourself and then being willing to honor yourself, to put yourself first, to center yourself in that journey, but that's core. And I'm married now and it's still the same thing. I still have to know myself well enough and what I want and what works for me and what doesn't work for me, and practice expressing that to my husband in a way that is appropriate.
Speaker 2:Well, and you just said that, practice right. Like I feel like that's how I've looked at this this entire time is that there have been moments that you know I would have shied away from communicating something because it was like, oh, pick your battles kind of mentality, you know, when I was married. But now I'm like what do I have to lose if I'm already telling myself that this isn't like a forever long thing that I'm aiming for, right, you know? So what do I have to lose other than teaching myself that I'm not worthy enough to honor my own needs, that I recognize, or to communicate something, or to dig in and ask a question about something, like maybe I'm misunderstanding it. And so I'm able to practice that and I'm very grateful for the fact that I can definitely say that this has taught me what a safe space, for you know, communication looks like. You know how he receives communication for me, how he holds a safe space for me to be able to explore these options. Now I will also say that I've put in a ton of work with therapy to make sure that I am speaking in I statements and that I am the best thing that I ever heard from my marriage.
Speaker 2:Therapist was the best way for effective communication is to be true to yourself, honest with others, without throwing blame or shame. And I've since added to that without throwing blame or shame on yourself or on the other person, because you can easily shame yourself, thinking, oh, I shouldn't be thinking this way, like I should just be able to get over this. I shouldn't have like I, you know, I should, I should, I should. And I think it's important to not shame yourself either. Like the feelings that you're having are valid.
Speaker 2:And so if something feels off, sometimes it's just as simple as saying like I don't know what's going on, but like something about this XYZ feels off to me, like I can't pinpoint it. I don't actually have the words for it right now, but I'm just kind of letting you. I might need to come back and talk about this. You know, is that going to be okay? And sometimes, when I'm asked like is everything okay right now? Is there something that you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:Sometimes I still say like I don't actually have the words right now to you know, put it out there effectively. But I do want to talk about it because you're right, like something is going on, but I just don't know what it is yet inside of me, if it's a me thing, if it's an us thing, like, is it okay if I take a little bit more space to you? Know, explore that. And again, like I love that he respects those boundaries, like he knows me well enough to know that, like if it continues to bother me, like my body will continue to tell me and I can't sit with that, like I I cannot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was he looking for when he started dating? How, like how long had he been on the app and what was he looking for?
Speaker 2:No, he had just been on the app, within the same week, and we both had just come out of divorces. In fact, his divorce was an overseas divorce and it requires a longer term, like separation time frame, which they had already been past that and they'd already been living, you know, separately. But so his divorce wasn't even yet fully finalized either.
Speaker 2:So you know we were both in the same boat around you know, not looking to have anything of pressure and not really looking to co-cojoin lives. You know, right now like to find new stability on our own and but at the same time still looking for some companionship. And you know, friendship more than anything, and that's the first part that I would say is like we have a ton of fun together. You know and again it's taught me safe space around communication, even sexual communication, both physical and verbal. You know.
Speaker 1:Do you have any overlap in your lives? So, like you mean, you've been together, ish, because they're not partners, you don't live together. Do you have overlapping your lives in terms of has he met your son or met your family friends?
Speaker 2:We have a legal agreement. He cannot meet my son until, like, we have certain stipulations in our divorce agreement and then on top of that there's been a. I mean, at this point we technically meet those criteria. The only thing outstanding would be I would just have to inform my ex of my intention to introduce, and I've come close. My son knows about him, he knows about my son, right, but I've come close. But honestly, I'm not in the place that I want to, you know. I mean, I really, really want my son to know how much he's the priority for for my life right now. You know, and I know, that divorce can be tough on teenagers, especially as they're aiming, you know, to find their own identity. And again, that's just part of how I've communicated, you know, with this person is that this is what is most important to me, and you know overnights can happen, on the weekends, that I don't have my son at home, you know otherwise You're planning double dates with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've gone out with friends, like he's met some of my friends like he's. We've, you know, gone to Galas together. So I mean we've been out. I mean are in my like public on social media about it? No, but that's my private life, I don't need to be.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, social media is not just and I think it would be just in terms of, you know, integrating, especially because you've been together I guess it sounds like longer than what you anticipated Definitely it's been a long time.
Speaker 2:So I just wondered if there were times when you've met some of his friends, if there's like, because a lot of that has been able to see and I know you said he's most likely not the person you would be with forever right, yeah, I mean at this point the things that and again, I'm still learning what is important to me and a long-term partner, right, there are elements to my personality that I think that I appreciate and that would be something that I would rather have in terms of, like, equal type of partnership and I'm not saying that he's not capable of them and some of these things are things that I have not yet communicated, and I know that I need to, but at the same time, I've waited so that I could weigh out, like, is it appropriate yet to communicate that if, based on the parameters of our dynamic, you know? I mean, again, there's no reason to potentially accidentally shame or blame somebody when the expectations aren't even well. We're not looking at this as a long-term, so why is that a bothersome thing? And that doesn't mean that as things become more settled and my life even changes you know, after my son heads off to college, like our seasons are gonna change, and so I think I'm just being a little bit open to that rather than boxing myself into some of those things, as I'm also learning to appreciate qualities that other people have that you know aren't my qualities, and how that might be a little bit of a balance, but also, most importantly, just paying attention to what is my body telling me. And the thing that I know absolutely the most and I'm happy to share a fast little story about that just perfectly articulates and illustrates how communication can happen. You know, I enjoy the friendship that I have with him, but I love our sex life. I mean, it is, hands down, the best sex life I've had ever and a lot of that is. There's so much safety and security and just trust in that space.
Speaker 2:And we had made plans for one weekend to go to a local sporting game. And as we were making that plan I said, okay, well, I'm gonna come over on Saturday and you know, we're gonna do XYZ, like sexual acts, and then we can go grab some food and then we can head to the game. And so when I got there that day and he was like, so you know, like what do you wanna do? Like when you wanna go, I'm like what do you mean? What do I wanna do? Like I told you the other day exactly what I wanted to do. I told you the full plan, like don't you wanna bang? Like let's do that before we go. And so then we head on afterwards and we go to have some food before the game.
Speaker 2:And we're sitting in this restaurant and sitting across from me and he says to me see, jamie, like we can have a good time without taking our clothes off. And I looked at him and I was like what, what do you mean? I'm like, well, yeah, but like also, we have a really great time with our clothes off. I'm like, take a look around this place. I'm like, seriously, like, look to your left, look to your right, like of all the people in here, like we probably have the best sex life of anybody in here. I'm like, and don't we owe that to ourselves? I mean, we both just came out of marriages and we haven't had a great sex life, like I'm like going off on this like whole, like what are you talking about? He's looking at me like I've got four heads and he's like yeah, ok. And I'm like Jamie, in my head, you're in a restaurant, like take it down a level, like let this go, whatever. So I do, we move on, we go on to the game, whatever. But it was sitting with me. I mean, it was really sitting with me. I took it to my therapist.
Speaker 2:Like four days later I'm in therapy, I'm having a conversation with it, and as I'm having conversation, digging into this, I realized that this part of me felt concerned, that he would think that this comment that he made was portraying to me that maybe he felt like I was only in it for our sex life, rather than appreciated other elements of the dynamic that we have the common interests, the things that we go and have fun, the conversations that we have. I was concerned that maybe he felt a little objectified, which obviously was holding up a mirror to some of my own traumas from my own past experiences as well. And so, at the end of the day, I really didn't want him to feel that way, even if and at the time our dynamic was not yet in the exclusive space, so we had not yet had that conversation. And so, even if we were still kind of like in a friends with benefits dynamic, I still didn't want him to feel that way. I didn't want to make, I didn't want to be the cause of somebody feeling that way.
Speaker 2:And so a few days later, when I'm seeing him again so now a week has gone by and I said to him I'm like, hey, listen, can we talk about something before we move on. I'm like I just feel like I need to get this off my chest because it's something that I've been thinking about all week. And he was like, yeah, what's going on? And I said well, when we were in the restaurant last weekend. First of all, I want to say I really value the conversations that we have. I have a good time with you. I love how we love music and we talk about that. I have a lot of fun with you and I hope that you know that I like more than just sex with you, even if we don't have a lot of pressure and we're not defining what this is.
Speaker 2:And I said but last weekend, when we were at the restaurant and you said we could have a good time without taking our clothes off I really didn't want you to feel objectified and he was like Jamie, jamie, I'm going to stop you right there. He was like that was the song that was playing overhead. I was like oh, what? What are you talking about? What song? And he was like you've not heard that song before. And I'm like I have no idea what you're talking about. So he like pulls up on YouTube the song. And I was like oh my gosh, I cannot believe this. Like my jaw was on the floor and he's like this has been bothering you all week. I was like I'm not a therapist with this and he was like, are you kidding? I'm like no, he goes.
Speaker 2:I thought you were reacting so strange that day in response to my comment and I'm like if you thought that, why didn't you bring it up? He's like you know what? Like in hindsight, I really should have. It would have saved you from having this turmoil all week long about it and for both of us it was just this really eye-opening moment around. If I hadn't brought this up, shade, like I can't tell you I can already imagine in my head going forward how many other little things in conversation or maybe body language things that could have kept occurring that would have fed that one little thought in my brain that that's what he thought and that he maybe was putting up a block or something. You know what I mean. I could have just carried that narrative along and would have found evidence to meet that narrative if I didn't ever just approach it right off the bat.
Speaker 2:And then we also, you know he noticed too that like, oh, if she's reacting a little out of character, or maybe not the, you know, based off of something that I intended to be a joke you know why didn't I dive into it either and so we both really realized, like, how quickly perspective, you know, can really paint the picture of what each of us are experiencing. I mean, our perspective is our reality, right, and it taught us very quickly it's now a running joke between the two of us, right, because anytime there's some communication, I'm like are we having a good time without taking our clothes off? You know, like it's a joke, but it's also something that we both very much know. What it taught us? And it continues to remind me that sometimes we do create these stories in our head.
Speaker 2:And Brene Brown, I love it how she said that, and you know, one of her Netflix specials was that the story I'm telling myself. You know that that's a phrase that she uses with her husband, because that's so true Like we do tell ourselves stories and they can spiral. We have really good imaginations and when you pin that up against our insecurities and our life experiences, we really can tell ourselves a big story and find the evidence that supports it. And it can give us fear to not bring up the conversation, and having the courage to step into those conversations to me has proven to be valuable because there is no lose situation out of it. But at the end of the day, I'm just honoring something that I'm feeling on the inside and I need to do that and it's what I encourage, you know, for him to do as well. I'm like I'm a big girl, I can handle the conversation, you know, like my reaction is my responsibility. But if you're feeling something off too, like, bring that to the table and let me know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, 100%. When I'm coaching my clients, I call it the frames of reference. Even if you're using the same words, yes, you could both have a different picture in your head. You know, I heard someone say well, if I say the word shoe, you have one picture in your head. You have a particular pair of shoes that you're thinking about, different from the particular pair of shoes that I'm thinking about, even though we both use the word shoe.
Speaker 1:And that's where, like you said, communication comes in. Like you have to, in a sense, overcommunicate about simple things, and, of course, we don't want to do that in every relationship. Like we use words that hold a lot of meaning so that we can move quickly through the world, through the checkout counter, through the at work, but when it comes to your intimate relationships with your children, with the person or people that you love, it's worth it to take that time to spell it out. Like I'm be curious, what do you mean by this? Like if we say we're going out to dinner, like my husband and I have two very different ideas of what going out to dinner means, and so that he'll go to Taco Bell for dinner and I'm like I won't eat anything that the chef did not personally have a hand in putting on the plate, and so I will.
Speaker 1:We've learned to take the time to spell things out and so and that's even in a relationship where we've been together years and we know each other how much more like when you are early on in the dating journey. While you don't want to over communicate, then it's almost like leaving space for ambiguity, like okay, if you just swiped on someone, don't make any assumptions, just leave space that you don't really know who this person is, you don't know a lot about them and you're gonna need to take time to figure it out and stay with them and come from a place of curiosity, because I have this extra layer that helps me, like it supports me in asking like, what do you mean by that word?
Speaker 2:because you know he's so, he's English, you know, so they have different phrases for different things than we do. And so sometimes I'm like hang on, like well, let's make sure that we're saying the same thing, or that I understand what you mean by that. But also, when there are things that come up that you notice is not like A your ex, I mean, let's face it, you married your ex for a reason. There were things there that were positive, that you admired, that you enjoyed about them. There were qualities there that kept you in the relationship for a certain amount of time, that you valued right.
Speaker 2:So there are and not everybody's gonna be the same and so when you're kind of comparing, like oh, he's so different, like in this aspect, or oh, that feels icky, like why are you like that, or whatever, instead of being like that, I dig into that, you know, so that I can come in from a place of understanding, like and I do it not like grilling, you know, like an interview style, but like, oh, I'm really curious. Like you know, did somebody, like, take care of these things for you? You know, growing up, or what was it like with your, you know, growing up as a teenager, like how did your mom handle some of this stuff? Or like your parents, like, what did you witness? You know, like I try to begin so that I have a better understanding, because it gives me more patience and empathy to be able to practice these skills of recognizing, you know, what is a good fit, but also learning to be flexible and really learning that I'm still learning myself. You know, like I'm still learning what is most important to me, and I don't know all of the answers to that yet, and I don't know all of the answers as to how I can continue to show up and I may personally want to live the rest of my life not sharing a house again with somebody else, because I've learned that I this is, I'm about to experience my first time ever truly living by myself, when my son goes off to college in the middle of the lake.
Speaker 2:In years, so I mean, since I was 15 and let's be real like being, you know well, 17 really, because I was couchsurfing most of the time or living with a boyfriend. But you know, let's be real, I'm not. I wasn't making the best of decisions then. I was a drug user. So you know, living on my own that's gonna be a really great time frame for me to learn who I am and how comfortable am I being truly by myself and not attaching myself to somebody for the wrong reasons, and that's what I'm really excited about, that, and I want that time and I deserve that time. I need that in order to feel like I am more secure in whatever the next time. It name it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that work. It's the same work, even if you're in the map. It's right, it's so true you really don't want and I think that this association of freedom and emotional freedom and life freedom attributed to being single and, almost like we all agreed, to lose it when you're married, no, the idea is to develop it so that you can have a relationship that nurtures it and you continue to experience that freedom with someone versus losing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that anybody who's looking, you know, to be in their next forever partnership, you know I mean, don't get me wrong the idea of that is a beautiful thing and when you're in that, it's a beautiful thing. When you found that I think that the chances of that being much longer lasting works higher for people who have done this work, you know, and I'm still in the thick of that work and honestly I feel like I probably have years of catching up to do on that, because I so much have associated my identity, you know, with negative type of things up until you know the more recent, like you know, eight, nine years of my life, and so you know, I'm still healing a lot of those parts and until I don't think that anybody's ever fully healed right. But I also feel like I recognize enough in myself that I'm also not at a place yet that I'm able to be able to give myself 100%, you know, in a relationship and cohabitate. I just know those things about myself well enough to say like that's not where I'm at and I don't, and I'm okay with that. I'm still in this healing process and I'm still making sure that I know how to communicate my boundaries and to communicate like what my needs are, so that I don't lose my identity again.
Speaker 2:The next relationship that I'm in, and that that can happen when you're dating, it can happen when you're married, it can happen when you're single, it can happen when you're a parent. You know it's, it can happen at any stage in your life. It's just that you have to learn to love yourself first and want to see more of her and give her the things that fill up all of your buckets, and one single person can't fill up every single bucket in your life. I mean and it's not fair to put that responsibility on somebody else but you do follow you boo boo. So I mean no, I can't get rid of the shadow. You know, I'm really happy and comfortable with her, first and foremost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing, jamie. This has been such an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you like just sharing just how I love yourself awareness and just your you know ability to just share that and share, like the processes that you have behind the decisions that you're making and the journey that you're on is like priceless. So thank you for coming on and sharing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for giving me a safe space to share it. You know, I feel like we all need to learn from each other's experiences and recognize that it's not that there's a right or wrong way. It's about what's the right way for us where we're at in this season, and it does take awareness to be able to figure out making aligned action and taking, you know, finding that alignment to be able to live peacefully with the decisions that you're making.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing. So please tell the listeners, anyone who wants to connect with you, how they can find you, whether on your social media or your website, and what they should reach out to you for.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So biggest thing, jamiemylemcom is my personal website. I've got some free journals on there. I'm all about awareness and alignment over in that space. The Divorced and Determined AF podcast, of course. So anywhere that you're listening to this episode, you can find Divorced and Determined AF on that platform. And then again, my biggest thing is for resources for women going through divorce again before, during and beyond. Share it with your girlfriends. When everybody comes to you and says what do I need to do, what do I need to think of, who do I need to go to? That's what this resource center is for, because no single divorce is the same as somebody else's. No matter how much they might have similar aspects, they're never going to be the same, and so let's help our friends and sisters out by giving them a space to go to. So that's peaceofminddivorcedinfo. It's a free resource center. It's a one-time opt-in and you'll have access to the full growing library and the professional directory.
Speaker 1:And all of these links will be in the show notes. So if you listen to this podcast on any of your devices, just click through to the show notes and you will see all of Jamie's links. Jamie, thank you for being here with us today, and this is us. We appreciate your time and attention and we'll see you next time.