209. Dating from the Good Man's Perspective with Sandy Weiner

Have you ever wondered what dating looks like from the good guys' side?

My guest this week on the Dating after Divorce podcast is Sandy Wiener, a dating coach who works with both men and women.

Sandy shares the what her male clients experience on the apps on their journey to find love and commitment, and what women who date men can do to connect with them.

Key episode takeaways:
- Dating after divorce can be challenging but there are good people out there on both sides. It takes work to find the right match.

- Both men and women experience similar struggles with online dating like unclear profiles, lack of photos, negativity etc.

- Shared values, communication and willingness to do personal growth work are important for building lasting relationships later in life.

- Meeting people through shared interests and passions in addition to apps can enhance chances of finding that special someone.

- Having an open mindset without assumptions and looking at each person as an individual are important for dating success.

Featured on the Show: Sandy Wiener
Sandy Weiner is the Chief Love Officer at Last First Date. She's an internationally known TEDx speaker, dating and relationship coach, author, and podcast host. Her approach to coaching is holistic, encompassing  a hybrid mix of life coaching, Neurolinguistic Programming, and Non-Violent Communication. She’s the author of "Becoming a Woman of Value; How to Thrive in Life and Love", and "Choice Points in Dating; Empowering Women to Make Healthier Decisions in Love". She’s also the host of two popular podcasts, Last First Date Radio and The Woman of Value Podcast, and she believes it's never too late to have the life and love you want!

Connect with Sandy:
Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/yourlastfirstdate/
Website: http://lastfirstdate.com/
Podcast: Last First Date Radio https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/last-first-date-radio/id586220219?mt=2
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lastfirstdate1/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandyweiner1
YouTube Last First Date https://youtube.com/@Lastfirstdate

Work with Sade:
Discover Your "Core Values Dating Blueprint" And How You Can Use It On:

•  Dating Apps
• Text Messages
•  and Social Events To Meet & Attract Eligible Men Who Match You

Dating with your Core Values helps you Easily Connect With Your True Match Partner (without chasing, settling, or wasting time with non-committal men)

Click Here to Sign Up

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:29

Hello everyone, welcome back to the dating after divorce podcast. I'm your host, shadi Curry, and with me here recording today is Sandy Weiner, and I am super excited for this episode with Sandy. Sandy is the host of the last First Date podcast, which is how we met. She is also the chief love officer at the last First Date. She's an internationally known TEDx speaker, dating and relationship coach author and podcast host, and Sandy's approach to coaching is holistic and compassing a hybrid mix of life coaching, neuro-linguistic programming and non-violent communication. She's the author of Becoming a Woman of Value how to Thrive in Life and Love and Choice Points in Dating, empowering Women to Make Healthier Decisions in Love.

Speaker 2: 1:20

Sandy, welcome to the podcast, thank you so much, shadi, it's fun to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:26

Can you tell the listeners just a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:30

Yeah, I mean, let's see, I've been doing this for about 16 years. I did not start out as a dating coach. I started out as a life coach and I was helping people in midlife transitions, because that's where I was, and I was helping people who became empty nesters and didn't know what to do next or wanted to change careers in midlife. And then I started helping a friend of mine who was dating way before I was ready after my divorce and I saw what a mess she was making of her dating life. She really was hiding. She was hiding in her profile pictures. You could barely see her. They were dark and fuzzy and far away and her profile was totally generic.

Speaker 2: 2:21

And even though I had not dated online ever, I knew what she was doing was not attracting the right kind of people. And, honestly, she had been in an abusive relationship with her husband and she just kind of wanted to be online but wanted to also hide, and so she attracted exactly what she put out there, which was everything. Everything that fell into her net was usually not the right people, and so I started helping her write her profile. I told her which pictures to post, we took new pictures and she started attracting the right people and she eventually met her husband and I was like, oh, this is fun, I enjoy this, and that's kind of how I got into dating and relationships and I began working with women. And then I transitioned into working with a few special men who are coachable, and we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

Speaker 1: 3:15

Yes, yes, I'm really excited to hear I don't work with men. I've worked with a few men who were socialized as women and so I stay on the, you could say, feminine side of the work. I'm really excited to hear men's experience. But before we dive into that so you've been divorced and you have also dated and been in some amazing relationships Could you just tell us a little bit about that journey? I know I listened to your TEDx talk with listeners and you can look up Sandi's TEDx talk on YouTube. You described your journey as sort of shedding the layers of a tootsie pop role and opening up your heart to love again. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker 2: 3:57

Yeah. So when I first started dating after my divorce, I didn't realize how guarded I had been my whole life and what that had led to was picking the wrong husband, picking the wrong partners. And I don't want to give away the entire TEDx talk, but basically the metaphor of a tootsie pop came to me and for anyone who doesn't know what a tootsie pop is, it's a tootsie role in the center which is like a toffee, and then there are many, many layers of hard candy like a lollipop. On the outside. There used to be a commercial. How many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie pop? And I would joke like too many to date me because it took too much to get to the center of who I was. And I realized this because I was dating somebody who said he was like a tootsie pop and I'd like part on the outside, soft on the inside, and I thought, well, that's what we love in men. We love these tough guys who really are kind and teddy bears, but with us women it's not as attractive, and so we have to really share our vulnerability quicker. We have to work on those layers that got in the way and figure out what they are and why we put them there in the first place.

Speaker 2: 5:17

And it takes some work, which is a lot of what I do in coaching, and so, yeah, that was part of my journey was learning to be more vulnerable, learning how to share my stories. Not share everything, certainly not share all the parts of my marriage. That didn't work, which I did in the beginning, thinking oh, people really admire this and look how far I've come. And then I would also have this whole thing about trying to prove how busy I was, because I thought that was really attractive too and men would be so admiring of a busy woman. But they were like she has no time to date, and so I was getting feedback from men and realizing, wow, this is really not working. And then I started to meet some amazing men and have some incredible relationships. They were not lifelong relationships, but they were. They all served a purpose in helping me to become the woman I am today and to be the coach I am today because when you're out there dating, you understand the dating world.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Yes, it's a whole. It's a different world. It is. We would love it. I think in the past the dating world was just a part of the world. It was just a part of life to date to meet your partner. Unfortunately, it's become this sort of compartmentalized part of our lives. So we go to work and work, his work and dating is dating, and your love life and your family are sort of separate from that, which is kind of unfortunate because I think it's put a burden of complexity on what it means to date today.

Speaker 2: 7:01

Well, when I got divorced, my kids were 13, 16 and 19, I think, and I sat them down about two years later because I spent the first two years really focused on their emotional wellbeing, trying to make sure that they were adjusted well, because it's very disruptive to get divorced most of the time and I just wanted them to have a stable life. I didn't want to introduce dating into that life for them, and I was also. I'd gone back to school to become a coach, I was starting a new business, my life was full, I didn't have a whole lot of bandwidth for dating, and so I was finally ready and I sat them all down and I said this is what you can expect I will not introduce you to anyone unless they become really serious. You will not meet them. They will not be a revolving door of men coming in and out of your life. And I asked them how they felt about me dating and I remember my son saying I'm okay with you dating, but don't get remarried. And another time he said I don't know why you need a man, because you're like a man and a woman. And I'm like oh, that's interesting, because they've experienced me as this strong woman Like why would I need a man? And so a lot of really interesting conversations came up.

Speaker 2: 8:18

My oldest daughter did not want me to date she had. A couple of years later she got married and she was like I just wanna be able to be comfortable in your house and I don't think I'll be comfortable with a man. So we talked about all of it and now it's been many years and they're totally comfortable with my dating life. They don't live with me anymore. So it's not like I have to watch how I date, who I date. When I bring a man to my house. It's all up to me. And I still don't share the nitty gritty details of my dating life, and I don't think we should. I think it's not their business to be part of that part of our life. They are on a need to know basis.

Speaker 1: 9:02

Well, yeah, and I don't think our children want to hear. I know I don't think my children wanna hear the details of no, they don't want to hear about their mother's dating life, no, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about where you'll work with men, which I am fascinated about and I'm so glad, and I know the women listening are gonna be like thank you, sandy, for helping these men out, because they need it. My first question is just like a generalization Are there good men out in the dating pool? Like that is the question we all wanna know. Are there any good men out there? Well, you found one.

Speaker 2: 9:38

Yes, I did, I sure did. I think when we're out there dating, you have to really sort through and sift through what's out there, and it's just like if you would walk into a mall and think that every single person you meet in the mall is dateable. I mean, that's what online dating is like.

Speaker 2: 9:57

You're not gonna be dating every single one of them. They're not gonna be appropriate for you. So you do have to learn how to remove anybody who is not a good fit and get to the bottom of the pile and figure out who are those few people who are compatible. So, yes, there are really good men, but you have to be able to work through the other people and get good at vetting, but get clear about you and what you need. And so the men who come to me are men who have heard me on my podcast or they've heard me on a YouTube channel.

Speaker 2: 10:32

I do a lot of interviews on Second Act TV, which is for people over 50. And she has a very big population of people who love dating and relationship videos. So that's the majority of the videos that we do together. And so a lot of men have found me there and they'll reach out to me and they'll say I really like your style of coaching and I'm wondering if you know a man who's a coach who could coach me. And so a couple of years ago, a guy reached out and said that and I said listen, why don't you fill out my coaching application and if you are coachable, after we have a phone call. I'll coach you. You know we can talk about it.

Speaker 2: 11:15

So he was one of the first ones that I worked with. He was divorced, lovely, lovely man, very willing to get vulnerable, to look at every aspect of his dating life. He had been married twice. He told me he still loved each of his wives. He didn't really understand the things that he had done that had caused the divorce and that he needed to work on to do better. So being open, being willing to make changes, being vulnerable and knowing how vulnerable to get so those are some of the things I worked on with him.

Speaker 2: 11:54

But some of the other men who were lovely men didn't have what we call game. They didn't have that kind of confidence in dating that women are attracted to, and so with them I worked on how they portray themselves. A lot of them were people pleasers, just like women, and they were just agreeing to everything the woman said and all the women were saying well, we really like you, but you're like a good friend. You know you've sort of friend-zoned and these are wonderful, good-looking, successful men with full lives, with hobbies, with so much going on, who have made peace with the past, who are not carrying all this heavy baggage, but they just didn't have like that charm and that game that many of the players have.

Speaker 2: 12:44

But we also needed in our healthy good guys and so learning how to not be so eager to jump into the relationship in two seconds just like women, I mean to learn how to be a little bit more assertive with physicality and not just kind of wait for the woman to give the cues. The people pleasing, I think, was the most important piece, because so many of the men that I worked with were not asserting what they needed. They would just be too agreeable. So it's important to be able to do that, both men and women, and so those are some of the major things I've seen in the work that I've done with men.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Yeah, that's fascinating because it just means that we're all human. Now and, of course, within this conversation, just to clarify for the listeners we're really talking in the context of good people, not of users or toxic people. So, if we set all of those people aside which, of course, you need to look out for those people and be able to discern but just within the context of women who are looking for a relationship, looking for a commitment, willing to work on themselves, there is an equivalent group of men out there who don't necessarily know how to date, who don't necessarily know how to have a great profile or what to say and when, and who are willing to work on themselves as well.

Speaker 2: 14:17

Yeah, and I'm working on my third book now and I've interviewed about 13 women about their relationships.

Speaker 2: 14:26

The book is about love later in life and people who found love, sometimes for the first time, sometimes for the second or third time, but people who have found these lasting, loving, amazing relationships that are really special because they've done the work and they're meeting people who have also done the work on themselves, who are coming to relationships with a completely different, more mature approach to dating.

Speaker 2: 14:56

And I was just working on one woman's interview and she said that the guy that she's been with for now I think they're together four years when she first met him, the thing that attracted her was his sense of humor. He was witty, he was smart and they were having this witty banter on the dating app and then, when they were meeting for the first time, she was running late, so she texted him I'm running five minutes late and he said that's okay, I got a beer and I'm sitting at a table waiting for you. And her immediate thought was what a selfish guy. He didn't even wait for me. You already got a beer and she was ready to turn around, and this happens so often, right? So he's this confident guy. He's sitting at the table. He's like I'm sitting here, I'll get a beer, I'll wait for her.

Speaker 2: 15:47

It's miscommunication is just such a huge issue. So she said, yeah, I was ready to turn around. Then I'm like, okay, I'll just come and I'll have the be one and done, just like all the others. And she gets to the restaurant she sees kind of nerdy looking. She's like, eh, but then they start talking and she's first leaning back, thinking, ugh, can't wait to get out of here. And then, as the conversation progresses, she's leaning in more and more and is more attracted to him and it's like, wow, this is a great conversation.

Speaker 2: 16:20

They leave the restaurant after lunch, they go for a walk, and so she's saying that they both came to this relationship after toxic relationships with their spouses. They knew what they didn't want and they knew what they wanted to intentionally create. And I see this so often where you know you want kindness, that's all she said. The secret to my heart is kindness. And he's like, come on, that's too easy. And she said, no, you'd be surprised that it's not so common. And so each of the interviews that I'm doing has key takeaways that each person says what led them to this relationship, and for so many of them, I am in a place right now in my life where I'm ready and willing and able to do the work and to be part of this relationship, and that's really the key. I see it with men, I see it with women when you're ready and you know what you want and you know what you need, you're gonna find it much more easily.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Yeah, and you know, I really do believe that I agree with that Like you have to sort of it's like you have this knowing on the inside that you're ready for a relationship and you believe that there's a person out there for you. It's sort of like there's these two parts to that feeling of readiness or that understanding of readiness. What are your thoughts about that moment where she was leaning back, thinking, oh, what a weird, and I think this is just sort of like a habit, maybe just because our society is so fast paced and we have so much chatter on the internet about nerds and boring guys and things like that. And I wonder what are your thoughts about just that moment where, not that every good guy is good for you or that you should date a guy you're not attracted to, but your thoughts around the possibility that people do miss what's right for them because of that little thing that they just focus on instead of looking at the big picture of the human in front of them?

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, I think that so much of it comes from past trauma. You know, it's society and it's everything else and we're all so quick to judge, but so much of it is from our past trauma. So if we have been hurt, we are going to have that guard up, it's going to be that tootsie pop right, and we're going to say, well, you know, it's okay, I'll just tolerate this date and we don't really connect, we don't make that effort, and so so many people will write someone off because they're not the looks you were looking for or they're not that charming that you were looking for. And the truth is that the best relationships are not based on any of that. They're based on a connection, a true connection, and they're based on an attraction that grows. And so we often miss so many amazing relationships because securely attached people can come off as boring and we who are anxiously attached or avoidant, we will not recognize securely attached people as being good candidates. We're so used to people who either pull away from us, tease us, make it hard for us, communicate terribly, and that is the hook. And so getting used to somebody who actually makes you feel comfortable, at ease is so different for so many people's nervous systems.

Speaker 2: 21:13

So my suggestion to all the listeners is to get the guy a second chance. Like make the second date the default. Don't make the first date the default. Unless there's something glaring, like the guy's a massive alcoholic and he's down six drinks, that's a good reason not to date him again. Or he's spent the whole time being negative and talking about his ex-wife, or something. I mean a good person, not the most exciting person in the room. Sometimes sense of humor comes out later. Sometimes the kindness of somebody can touch your heart in such a way if you gave him a chance. And also I want to say that so many people go on boring dates. You set up the boring date, you're going out for coffee, you're sitting across from somebody. It is really hard to make a conversation happen unless you're a great conversationalist. You come prepared with questions and answers and do something more interesting. Go paint something, go axe throwing, go do something a little bit more dangerous, a little bit more exciting and mix it up a little bit, because that also brings out the good sides of people.

Speaker 1: 22:26

Yeah. So I love what you said about making the second date the default, because I often ask my clients because I think sometimes they're usually like they think if they give just that little bit of a window they're going to end up married to that person. And I always reassure them. I was like that's what I'm here for is to support you every step of the way. I've already set out a timeline. I usually will set out kind of like a rough timeline of what they hope their relationship will take. I said we set out a timeline. We said six weeks to exclusive or four weeks, depending on the woman. Everyone has a different timeline. So you're not in any danger of marrying this person just because you allowed them a second date. And so I have that conversation. But, like you said, it comes back to that fear or trauma where it's like I made the wrong decision the first time. I want to cut it off very quickly so that I'm not in danger of making that wrong decision again.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Yeah, and I want to bring the man side into this too, because one of the men that I'm coaching was just each woman that he dated was telling him that you know, I don't feel the spark, and so it was he'd be with her. One of them he dated I don't know how many times. He dated her from months and she never felt the spark and I was like why are you here? She's not right for you. But he couldn't. It was the beginning and he couldn't let her go. So women do the same things Like we, just a little longer, maybe, maybe they'll fall from me. So I'm bringing this up because it was. It's so similar to what so many women experience. And we went online together on match and I was looking at some women and I chose somebody for him and he said, oh no, I don't think so. And I'm like why he's actually not that attractive. I'm like, okay, take another look at this woman. She's gorgeous. And so he wrote to her and he was like, yeah, you're right, I didn't see it. And now they've been together for six months, they're in love, they're thinking about marriage, they're planning a future, they've traveled together and my last session with him he brought her to the session and so I got to meet her for the first time.

Speaker 2: 24:46

It was a surprise to me. I was like, wait, a minute, wait, we got both of them All right. Well, let's pivot and we'll do some relationship coaching. And she was lovely, but you could see like her personality was let's slow the thing down. You're in a hurry, I'm not in a hurry. I've been single 20 years. You've been single the short time. I'm divorced, you're widowed.

Speaker 2: 25:07

We have a very different background and so they're just talking about everything and I love how open both of them are to having tough conversations, to talking about the future, and they're not ready to move in together. But I talked to them about maybe go to Costco together, you know, do fun errands together, like you would if you were living together, because those everyday kinds of things are really what's appropriate, I think, at this stage and start talking about, like if you were together for the weekend, who does which chores, like you've got to be intentional about the things that you do. But it was just so much fun to be able to coach them both and to give them something to think about and talk about at the next stage of their relationship. And it's the same thing women think about. You know, it's so similar.

Speaker 2: 26:00

And so when you have a good person, they are open to feedback. They are open to hard conversations, because everything comes up, especially if you're dating and you're older. You're going to have sexual things come up. You know you're going to have money come up, you're going to have the big topics that people are afraid to talk about, and they're going to come up, and if you don't talk about them, you will not have intimacy, you will not grow your relationship, and so for a lot of men, people are surprised oh, these guys are actually bringing up these conversations, and that's the beauty of coaching.

Speaker 1: 26:36

Yeah, amazing. So it sounds like your clients hear the same things, that, or say they think some of the same things that women think, which is I don't feel the spark or I'm not. I hear this often. I'm not attracted to this profile, to which I say we're not supposed to be attracted to something on a two inch by four inch screen. That's not how attraction works. I have a whole episode that breaks down the eight to 10 elements that actually constitute attraction. What other things do our men experiencing on the dating apps? Because I think I hear from a lot of women about how dating apps are not great. These men say these things to me, but I also know men are experiencing things that they don't enjoy on the dating apps as well.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, good question. So a lot of what they complain about is women who look different in every picture different color hair, different weight. They have no idea who she's going to be on a date and just as men do the same thing, I don't know why some men will post pictures from high school like why, because you had hair. Then I don't care. Like you know it's their own insecurity, but it's just such a silly thing, like I'm not dating 18 year olds you. So that's one thing. I think a lot of women do the same thing that men do, which is write a terrible profile. A lot of it is negativity. A lot of it is just ask me anything, I'm an open book. So they'll start out being really positive and then they'll be like and if you're a narcissist and Trump supporter, if you're this and that, don't play. So that turns them off, trying to think of what else? Too few photographs like one and that's it, just like on women's profiles, Just like men.

Speaker 1: 28:26

just like they complain about men having one photo.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Yeah, exactly so it's a lot of the similar kinds of things. I think. You know when I work with a man who's looking at a profile and they go yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:38

I don't know, and then so I I'm sure you have something similar. But once we have the must have and deal breaker lists, I asked them to search for three things they like in the profile and not look for what's wrong, but start with what's right, because a profile is not a person. Profile is just a profile. Some people are good at writing them, some people are terrible. Most people are pretty bad at really representing who they are. Most profiles are generic. They look the same, they sound the same.

Speaker 2: 29:13

So, yeah, men experience similar things and I think there's a lot of fatigue. Also, when you're been online, a lot of men are like I don't know. I just feel like they all look the same, they all sound the same. I think the other issue I've seen is age, and I have one man who wanted to lie about his age by a couple of years. I'm not a big fan of that. I think you should be honest and men are meeting women and actually the man who I was talking about before, who's in this beautiful relationship, she lied about her age by a lot of years and he had been dating much younger women. He looks very young, but he was really concerned that she was so far from retirement and he was already retired. So he was in his 60s and she wrote that she was in her 50s and turned out they were like five years apart.

Speaker 1: 30:04

So you know that's, I almost missed him. By representing herself as younger. Yes, see yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:14

So it's so interesting, right. We think, oh, we'll be found in a search and that'll be a great thing. But big age gaps can be a turn off for people, especially a mature person who's looking for someone they can actually talk to. A lot of men are not looking for arm candy. The men I work with are looking for a real relationship with somebody that is relatable.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Yeah, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that Because I know that that's a lot of fears, that there's the narrative that men are just looking for women who are younger, they're trying to date young and of course, there are some men. It's always it's never 100% either way there's always some men who want someone 30 years younger. That happens.

Speaker 2: 30:58

We see them in the news.

Speaker 1: 30:59

But that's not all men. And the other thing that I think you illustrated was that there is a particular person looking for someone like you. It's not everyone isn't looking for you, just the same way that the woman isn't looking for every man out there, or at least shouldn't be. This gentleman that you spoke about was looking for someone who was closer to retirement because he wanted a different lifestyle from someone who had you know was in the middle of their career. And if you fall into that, then you want to be that, so that the person who's looking for that can find you.

Speaker 2: 31:35

Yeah, yeah, and also the pace of a relationship. Everybody moves at different paces, and so if you're eager to get remarried, for example, I mean when I first started working with this guy, he still had a lot of Christian values around marriage and premarital sex. I mean he's in his 60s and he's thinking I shouldn't have premarital sex, and I said you might want to rethink that. You might want to rethink some of the things that you have been carrying with you since you're 20, because they may not apply and you might want to rethink marriage. It may not be the right thing for you. So it's planting the seeds that maybe the type of relationship that I thought I wanted and needed is not the right one, and then figuring out what that could be.

Speaker 2: 32:26

And so there are a lot of people who are living apart together at this stage in life. They don't want to have another marriage. They don't know what to do with finances If they are together. They want to protect whatever they have, because it comes often with a lot of difficulty the money that we accrue after divorce, building wealth again. And so there's a lot to think about and it's not one size fits all. Everybody's going to have different needs. I mean mine have changed over the years. I totally started out with a different idea about who I was, what I needed, and then I evolved as a person and so give yourself the time to figure out who you are, because once you do, you'll be really clear. I mean, it's like you'll recognize the person when they show up. You'll feel a sense of belonging and recognition of that person because you'll get each other and it'll be easy. Like relationships aren't meant to be labor intensive from the beginning, especially at the beginning.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Yes, yeah, and I love that you mentioned like there's no one size fits all. I've heard so I have. My client base is very diverse. I have some women who are celebrate until marriage unrepresent and then have someone that we men who are like I just want to have a lot of fun on the way to. You know my partner.

Speaker 1: 33:51

And for the women who don't want to have sex before getting married again, they worry that there's some kind of rule that they have to that no one, there's no one in the pool who is, who doesn't want to, who wants to wait. I guess maybe that's a good way to say it. There's no one in the dating pool who wants to wait. And you know listeners, you've heard it. There are men Now the number I don't know.

Speaker 1: 34:16

But if that's what you're looking for and that's what matches your values, then there are people out there who want that. And if your values are different and you are more adventurous or you want to explore more, or your spirituality or background dictates something different, there are people who match that on the other side as well. And I think that's that's always hard for us to see, because our brains thrive on. Whatever we see in our environment is what we believe exists. I think it's called the availability bias, where we don't think anything exists other than what we can see. And so if you don't, if the last 50 men you swiped on on the app all wanted, you know, to have sex, then you think that's all that's out there. Well, the truth is, the world is a very big place. There are 8 billion people on the planet. There's all kinds of people.

Speaker 2: 35:07

That's true, and I think you can't if you're looking for something very specific, very an unnarrow pool. So finding somebody who is celibate until marriage is probably a lot smaller than people who are not. So know that it's going to take a longer time. Know that you're going to have to go through a bunch of dating profiles and ask it up front. You know you've got to be able to say this is important to me.

Speaker 2: 35:34

I think one of the worst things that people can do is, first of all, to change for somebody and be out of alignment with who they are, and the second is to be ambivalent, to not be clear, and so if you're not clear, you're going to attract a lack of clarity. You're going to keep attracting people who are not clear about what they want and they'll be like wishy-washy and they'll probably be dating lots of other people while they're dating you, but not talk about it because you haven't had that discussion. And so don't be afraid to ask the hard questions. Don't be afraid to find out up front, to ask what are you looking for? What kind of relationship are you looking for? People should be able to answer that pretty easily, like I'm looking for a serious relationship, I'm looking for marriage.

Speaker 1: 36:19

That should be on the profile. What you're looking for. There's a place for that on the profile. Serious relationship casual.

Speaker 2: 36:26

Some people check all the boxes though.

Speaker 1: 36:28

They're like.

Speaker 2: 36:29

I'm looking for everything and a lot of people are like short term leading to long term. You know it's confusing. There's a lot, so you've got to decide what do you want, and then you've got to watch if somebody's actions and words align, because somebody could say to you yeah, I'm looking for serious relationship, but they're not showing you their actions.

Speaker 2: 36:48

So, yeah, it's definitely a process. It takes time. A lot of people are jaded. They feel like it doesn't work. Online dating doesn't work. It does work. It's how most people find love today. But don't limit yourself to online dating only. I just want to encourage your listeners to get out there and do the things that you love and start meeting people through activities that you're doing. I mean we're post COVID sort of. I mean everybody I know has had COVID recently, but we're COVIDish, past COVID, and we're not walking around in quarantine anymore. You know people are socializing. Get out there, join meetups, go on hikes, do things with people that are loving what you're loving, because so many people find people when they are doing what they're passionate about.

Speaker 2: 37:41

One of my favorite stories in my book is my upcoming book is a client of mine who really struggled for a long time after her divorce to find love. She kept feeling like these guys are not a good match and then she'd feel like it's a good match and the guy would ghost her and it was just so frustrating. And then she took a trip to Italy and she speaks Italian fluently. She had lived there for a number of years and had done graduate school work there, so she loves Italy. It was right after COVID restrictions had opened up and she was supposed to stay in a certain place, but that was not available, so they ended up in some farmhouse in kind of an obscure town in Italy. It was a friend of her friends who organizes these dinners monthly, and so she was having this dinner. It was a rainy night. My client was like oh God, I really don't want to be here, I want to be in a different city and it's raining.

Speaker 2: 38:43

And anyway she, she gets to the dinner and the woman who's hosting says, learns a little bit about her and says oh, this guy speaks fluent Italian, he's whatever. You should go sit next to him. So she goes, sits next to him and for like three hours they're like in a bubble just talking and Buddy keeps, keeps mentioning he has a partner. So she doesn't know if it's a business partner or a woman partner. He lives with a partner, I don't know, but they're getting along really well. And the next day they exchange the exchanged information and he said I would love to continue to work on my English and you can work on your Italian. We'll do these Skype, skype sessions. Is that going to work for you? She's like sure. So as they get to know each other through Skype, she starts to ask you know what is this partner? So he says well, it's complicated, we really have drifted apart. But she is both a business partner and a romantic partner and I want to end this relationship. So he was working on ending it.

Speaker 2: 39:49

The conven the relationship that these two people had was so special and felt so like otherworldly that she was willing to just get to know him as he was going through his process and she always had a dream to travel a lot. She's multicultural, so his business was organizing tours around Europe and she went back to Italy. He ended the relationship. They got together and they've been together now for a couple of years. It's you never would have been able to imagine this relationship, but she was doing what she loved.

Speaker 2: 40:29

She was in Italy, she was in love with where she was and she met somebody who also was on a journey of personal growth, just like she was. They both met each other at the right time and so that's another thing you know where a lot of people who are meeting after a divorce, after a separation, after widow being widowed. You've been through some life and when you meet somebody at this stage you kind of know who you are. Hopefully, you know what you want and you're going to recognize it when it shows up and you also have the skills to have hard conversations. I mean you should be learning all these things honestly, because not everybody has them. But if you do the work and you show up and both of you are on that journey, that the growth journey, these relationships are the most special of any that I've ever seen.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you and resonate with that Cause I get the question often and it was on my list, but you answered it with this story, which is where are all the good men hanging out? Just on the side of dating in person? Because I do encourage my clients to also date in person, don't just be on the apps and then they're like, well, where do I go? But you answered that so beautifully go where the things you love are. Now, the little caveat to that most men aren't in quilting groups. See, if you love quilting, right. Just a little tiny little caveat quilting groups, sorry, but there are men who have seen men on social media who knit and things. But overall it's like the things you love that overlap.

Speaker 1: 42:08

So I sort of tell my clients I said, draw a Venn diagram. They're like I hate sports, I hate golf. I'm like, okay, great. So draw a Venn diagram. My partner probably loves sports and golf and I love quilting and crafting. But where are the things that are in the middle that overlap? So could be travel. Both men and women tend to love travel. Could be reading, could be books, hang out at the library, go to speaker events, things that you know that you're likely to share together with your future partner. Lean into those things and go, do those fun things for your own enjoyment and also to be a part of a community that loves those things too.

Speaker 2: 42:51

Yeah, absolutely, because your passions make you attractive. Like you, you're gonna light up. These things make you feel alive. And the other thing is, you mentioned the quilting that may not be there. That's true, and I think a lot of women choose to go to book clubs and they're not coeducated coeducated, there are no men there. But actually some of my male clients belong to book clubs and some of them do activities that women do, and so they've also met women at, let's say, wine tasting. Some of my clients live out in California and wine country, and so they go to these wine tasting things. I had a woman client who was really an intellectual and I told her to go to conferences and but don't just go talk. I think that's the piece that's missing for a lot of people. And don't just talk about the intellectual stuff. Talk about it with fun, bring a fun conversation. You know, when you say to somebody, what do you do, which is a common question on a date, that's boring and it leads to a conversation about work that you probably don't even wanna hear.

Speaker 2: 44:06

I mean most people don't have such exciting jobs. But if you ask in a different way, like what do you love about what you do, it makes them think differently and it makes them answer differently, and then you have a values-based conversation. And so when you're out there socializing, go deeper, don't be afraid to go deeper with people and really get those layers of the tootsie pop off.

Speaker 1: 44:30

Yes, yes, ask a, and I love that question. I think one of the questions that I give my clients is ask them how they got into their career. Isn't that a story? That's a personal story, something about them?

Speaker 1: 44:42

Yeah, that's a good one, and this has just been incredible Such a great conversation. I think, just like when I was on your podcast, it felt like we could just keep going and talking. It's true, but from someone who has if you've interacted with the good guys, you know them so well, you are a resource for them. Do you have, like, just any last advice for women, just something that they need to know? And I think you've already just really opened up the human side, cause I think there's an objectification that happens they're not thinking about men as like another human being on the other side. I really want to thank you for just humanizing them so well this conversation, but what advice do you have? Do you have any words of advice for women who are dating after divorce? As a coach for both men and women and someone who has been divorced and has been actively dating, and in some cool relationships as well, what's your last words you have for the audience?

Speaker 2: 45:41

So many things come to mind, but I think first of all, don't bring your past assumptions to your present dating, and so many people will look for the opposite of their ex. You know they'll be like oh well, my ex was a lawyer, so I'll never date a lawyer again. Well, that's ridiculous, because not every lawyer is the same. So look at your assumptions. Look at the way that you're labeling people and you want to be treated without assumptions. You want to be treated as an open book and a clean slate. So every person that you meet should be treated as a clean slate. Rule them in until they rule themselves out, and that is one of the most important things we tend to rule out before we have rule them in, which is aligned with the. You know, go online and look for three things you like. First, don't look for what's wrong. Oh, ick, I don't like it. Ick, ick, everybody's got the Ick.

Speaker 2: 46:39

I think it's like ridiculous, this Ick thing. There's actually a TikTok channel that was just like all the Icks, and this guy just went around interviewing women about what they find turns them off. Yeah, there's like 500 things. A man who uses his blinker what a turnoff. I'm like what? Don't do this. Don't do that, don't breathe, don't look sideways, don't shave your head, don't grow your hair.

Speaker 1: 47:11

I mean one of them was like his wallet was like something about. His wallet looked some kind of way. Another one jumped over a puddle. That was great.

Speaker 2: 47:20

I was like yeah, they sound ridiculous, but this is what people do, like in the case I was telling you about the woman who was like, wow, he got a beer before me. So selfish, they're in the best relationship. And then she could have written him off. And a couple months later she said to him you're so lucky, I gave you a chance because you know you got that beer and he goes. You're so lucky, I gave you a chance because you were late. And she was like oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:48

And it is a protective mechanism Again like you said we're trying to protect ourselves. I had those same thoughts when I was dating and it was work. I had to intentionally keep an open mind and remind myself to keep an open mind every step of the way, but also, once something came up that was a deal breaker, be ready to put the brakes on at that point, but not before.

Speaker 2: 48:13

Yeah, that's the. Rule them in until they will themselves out. As soon as you see a deal breaker, don't try to make it work. You know you can get curious about it, you can ask a question, but it's usually pretty clear that one deal breaker is going to make everything else that is positive, totally null and void, because it doesn't matter how good looking that person is, what kind of job they have, how kind he was to you on the first date, it doesn't matter if he was rude to the wait staff, if he did something, that was, if he drank too much. You know it's like whatever it is, that's a deal breaker to you. Don't ever let those go. So open your net as much as you can on the things that don't matter and make it very small and narrow on the things that do.

Speaker 1: 49:01

Beautifully said, beautifully said. Thanks, sandy. Right as we wrap up, could you please tell the listeners just a little bit about your work, where they can find you and how they can contact you? I also know you have a quiz, so tell us a little bit about that so that they can connect with you, sure?

Speaker 2: 49:18

So I do private coaching and group coaching and I work mostly with people over 40. And I have a free Facebook group for anybody who is interested in a really positive place of support. It's called your Last First Date and we have this is just a beautifully run, curated group. We kick people out if they don't follow the rules. And, yeah, I mean there are books and DIY courses and all kinds of things on my website. You could go to lastfirstdatecom to check out all the things that I do. I have blogs and videos and just have like 1,500 blog posts and YouTube channels.

Speaker 2: 50:10

I've got a lot of content and my podcast, last First Date Radio, go here, shade on the podcast with me, and I do have a quiz. I think the easiest way to get to the quiz is just to go to lastfirstdatecom. It pops up and also there's a link in the menu to quiz. You could just click on that and take the quiz. It's about the four communication archetypes. So I discovered that the archetypes we all have different archetypes and we don't realize that we're communicating in certain ways and that can really destroy the relationship or improve the relationships. You have to know who you are and what kind of communicator you are, and then you have to know who you're communicating with, and so this quiz will give you an outline of what your communication style is and how to communicate more effectively.

Speaker 1: 51:03

Amazing. All right, all of those links will be in the show notes listeners. So please check out the show notes and connect with Sandy. Her podcast is amazing. You have how many episodes? Because your podcast is pretty extensive.

Speaker 2: 51:20

It's 10 years old, so we have 560, I think that I've completed More. I don't even lost count, but yeah, I was doing them twice a week at one point once a week I have bonus. Now I have a bonus session every Sunday, so now it's twice a week again, but the bonus session is only five to seven minutes long. It's just me talking about a topic that's relevant to people dating at this stage in life.

Speaker 1: 51:51

Yeah, wonderful. Thank you so much for the work that you do and for just coming on the podcast and sharing with the listeners. I know they're going to be checking out your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you and listeners, we just want to thank you for your time and attention today, appreciate you taking the time to hang out with us and we will see you next time.