230. The Decade after Divorce with Dr. Toyin Falusi Nwafor

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Website: https://www.tfalandchi.com/

Shownotes:

In this episode of the Dating After Divorce podcast, Sade Curry interviews Dr. Toyin Falusi Nwafor, affectionately known as T-Fal, who shares her journey of writing her book 'The Decade After' and her experiences navigating life after divorce. Dr. T-Fal emphasizes the importance of self-care, support systems, and personal growth during the challenging process of divorce. 

The conversation explores the unique experiences of divorced women, the impact of divorce on relationships, and the significance of how we use time in the healing process. Dr. T-Fal provides insights on how to empower oneself and support children through the transition, highlighting the need for understanding and compassion in the journey of healing. 

In this conversation, Dr. Toyin discusses the complexities of divorce, emphasizing the importance of understanding statistics in relation to individual experiences. She highlights the critical role of parenting in mitigating the negative impacts of divorce on children and stresses the need for a supportive network during such transitions. 

The discussion also touches on the challenges of navigating singleness and dating post-divorce, advocating for self-awareness and personal growth throughout the process. In this engaging conversation, Dr. Toyin and Sade Curry explore the complexities of dating and relationships after divorce. They discuss the importance of being honest with oneself about intentions in dating, the journey of reconnecting with past partners, and the significance of transparency in new relationships. 

Dr. Toyin shares her personal experiences of navigating love and companionship after divorce, emphasizing the need for intentionality and self-discovery. The discussion culminates in reflections on the future and the possibilities that lie ahead, highlighting the importance of embracing change and growth.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Toyin Falusi Nwafor

02:37 The Journey of Writing 'The Decade After'

06:34 Navigating Divorce: Unique Experiences and Resources

11:50 The Impact of Divorce on Relationships

14:04 Time Heals: The Importance of How We Use It

19:15 Healing Beyond Divorce: Childhood and Personal Growth

22:58 Understanding Divorce Statistics and Individual Outcomes

27:04 The Role of Parenting in Divorce

32:39 Building a Support System During Divorce

44:32 Navigating Singleness and Dating After Divorce

45:53 Navigating Post-Divorce Relationships

49:09 Intentional Dating and Reconnection

52:59 The Journey to Remarriage

56:34 The Importance of Honesty and Transparency

01:00:14 Embracing Change and Future Possibilities

Keywords

divorce, healing, personal growth, co-parenting, self-care, relationships, support system, women's empowerment, emotional well-being, navigating divorce, divorce, parenting, support system, statistics, relationships, healing, self-care, single life, emotional health, co-parenting, divorce, remarriage, dating, relationships, honesty, transparency, self-discovery, intentionality, personal growth, empowerment

Transcript

Sade Curry: Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Dating After Divorce Podcast. It has been a minute, but I am excited to bring you my guest today. Dr. Toyin Falusi Nwafor is in the house and affectionately she's known to all who know her as T-Fal. She's just here to share her amazing journey. So I'm just going to read out her bio and then we will get into it.

Dr. Toyin Falusi Nwafor is the author of "The Decade After: Thriving After Divorce," which was published 12 years after her divorce. In this well-reviewed book, she shares practical tips on staying positive, putting the kids first, co-parenting, and navigating relationships. Dr. Toyin emphasizes the importance of self-care, a support system, and personal growth during this difficult process. She empowers women to move from surviving to thriving and to emerge better, not bitter.

Dr. Toyin is a board-certified infectious disease physician, a professor of medicine, and an executive director in pharmaceuticals. She is a wellness and career coach who enjoys dancing, gardening, yoga, and exploring new places. She's an empty nester and she is a wife and mother who loves taking long walks with her husband and adorable Rottweiler, Gauge. And I really wanted to read out your bio because unlike a lot of my guests, I know you personally.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): [Laughs]

Sade Curry: I know that all of this stuff is true and more. So Dr. Toyin, welcome to the Dating After Divorce Podcast. Please say hello to the listeners.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Hello everyone and thank you, Sade, for having me. I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you, and hello everyone.

Sade Curry: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited. I've been trying to get you on here for a minute. So I am just delighted. And I was going to show her book—I actually have a physical copy, but I got the Kindle copy because I'm traveling at the moment. This book was so good. Now I had done a lot of work. I was way beyond my divorce when I read it, but it was still just... how you documented your journey and your thoughts.

When we talked earlier, you mentioned how unique everyone's journey was. And your journey for sure was very unique. It's in many ways different from mine. However, I love the way you documented really step by step how you went through it. I guess it's the academic in you that did that, but it was so good. The nerd.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): It's the nerd in me.

Sade Curry: Yes. So my first question was, what prompted you to write it? Like what was the impetus? What happened or what came to your mind that made you write the book?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. Thank you, Sade, for that question. And short answer is the girls, my daughters. Short answer. And I say that because I had a couple of years after my divorce, just navigating life with the girls and trying to do career and work and mom and all of that stuff.

My friends and people in our community where we lived would be like, "You really should write a book. You seem to be doing really quite well with this divorce thing. The kids seem okay." And it would come up periodically and people would say, "Man, you should write a book. You just seem so zen." I'm like, "I'm not zen. I'm just doing me."

And it was one of those things, because I write in my professional life—you have to publish or perish. I write and I write in academia and I present research findings, but this was obviously not a peer-reviewed research journal. It was just pouring from my experience. And I wrote it really because I wanted to be able to share with other women—again, other people have read it that are not women, but I wrote as a woman—share with other women how to navigate the process, how to support your kids so that they have the best possible childhood they can, despite the fact that their parents are no longer physically in the same space, and also how to support yourself and grow through that process.

And I think that was why. When I was going through my divorce, I didn't have any personal close friends who were going through a divorce. Nobody in my family—my parents are still married, my siblings, my very close friends. So I didn't have anyone close that I could lean into and the books that were out there, which I got a lot of them, my library back here, I still have some of my top books that I read during that process. They were very heavy. They were written by psychologists or divorce attorneys or psychotherapists. They were very dense and I love to read, which is great. It was dense and it was a lot of facts and data and stats.

And then there were other books on the other end that were very tell-all, scandalous, "this is what happened in my divorce" stuff. And I just wanted something in the middle of like regular people going through a divorce, not celebrities and scandals, and not just so technical textbook.

And so I was like, "You know, I'm going to write something about my experience from my voice, my perspective, and hopefully help someone." And I wrote it saying, if one person reads it and feels like, "You know what? There's something in here that connects with me," despite the fact that like we mentioned, every marriage is different. Every divorce is different. Every situation is different. But if there's something in there that connects with someone, I feel like I've done my part.

That was my impetus to be able to share my experience and hopefully someone somewhere going through a divorce, thinking about it, having recently gone through one, or even years after one sees something in there that resonates with them. And if someone knows somebody who's going through a divorce, loves somebody who's going through a divorce, works with somebody who's going through a divorce or has ever known anyone who's gone through a divorce, hopefully there's something in here that can help them support that person or understand why some things are happening and some of their relationships may look different. And just again, as a woman, how you can support somebody going through it or how you can empower yourself as you're going through.

Sade Curry: Yeah, amazing. No, I love that. And like you said, it's a very unique experience. It was one of the reasons I started my own coaching practice and started the podcast was because when I got divorced, there were a lot of books on grief and healing and all kinds of things, but none of them were applied uniquely to divorce. It's such a strange space and I think things are better now. I mean, I'm nine years out from my divorce now, so there's a lot more out on the internet and social media, you know, good, bad, and in between, but the unique experience of the divorced woman, I think is still underserved. Like there is still just not enough data. There's really not enough uniquely crafted help. For instance, what you mentioned being the only divorced person in your immediate community. That's unusual, right?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): There's a whole section in there about what that means. I got divorced in 2005 so that was 20 years ago. I can tell you the resources that are available now were not. So like you said, there's a lot more but even then the kind of services that you provide that you uniquely crafted because everyone's story and where they are in the stages of grief—the Kubler-Ross model I talked about in the book, it's applied to death and dying. That was the original, but it's so applicable to so many things.

And divorce is a process. It is the end of something that was planned, right? Nobody goes into a marriage planning for divorce, right? So when that ends, no matter who pulls the plug, it is a traumatic event. And then the process of it, just the fact that it's ending, but then the process of the ending is so varied for a lot of people and the trauma sometimes is continuous during that separation process and then there's the externals, right? Sometimes people who care about you, sometimes random people, everyone has an opinion. All of that as you're trying to navigate, and life doesn't stop for you to deal with your divorce, right?

Sade Curry: 100%.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): The mortgage needs to be paid. Life goes on. Work drama is happening. If you have kids, you have to support them. You have aging parents. So life is life-ing. And you're trying to cope through something. And everyone has an opinion. So when you have the services that you provide, a safe space to engage with someone and figure out where they are, what their pain point is, and how to move them through, really very important.

Sade Curry: It is. I know when I went through it, I was similar. I got married—you know, you're of Nigerian descent, I'm of Nigerian descent as well—even for our culture, I got married really young. So I had my kids a lot earlier than my peers, and I got divorced a lot earlier than those who eventually got divorced. So I was like ahead of everyone.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Same here, I was divorced at 35. People were still just trying to couple. And then the Nigerian community, well, we don't even talk about it. People could be separated and living on different continents for 30 years, but they're still married. So like talking about it and actually publishing a book and putting your father's last name and talking about divorce. I was talking about breaking barriers there.

Sade Curry: Yes. So I know that people around me didn't understand what was happening. There was just no one who understood it or who got it. And in many ways also I had had the, you could say the outward appearance of everything is fine for so long that they were like, "What is going on?"

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): We all do. We have, you know, we talked about how the similarities end there. There's a podcast I had on that, right? That you could live in a subdivision where every home is cookie-cutter, same developer, same model. Everybody has the same two cars or one car, one dog, whatever. That's where it ends. That's where the similarity ends, what happens behind closed doors.

And obviously when you're in a marriage, you protect the privacy and the privacy of that union. So there's a lot of stuff that people don't see. There's a lot of things that we know, but we don't want people who care about us to know about what's going on. So you're right, when the marriage ends, people have no idea what is going on. And out of fear, right? I have a whole section in the book about how other people relate when you get divorced. Some people do the slow fade. Some people choose sides. Some people completely disengage. Some people constantly are in your business because everyone's trying to figure out what happened, especially if they thought everything was fine because then they're doing a little bit of diagnostics on theirs. Like if that happened to them, could that happen to me?

And what we don't know scares us a lot. Once you understand that about where people are coming from, you realize, okay, well, that's probably why they're doing all of this, but you have to figure out what you need to do for yourself. It's not about making sure everybody understands what's going on.

Sade Curry: Right. It's not about having people understand. In fact, one of the things I coach my clients on, the ones, my divorce clients, ones who are either preparing for a divorce or who are going through a divorce, we practice phrases for each of those types of people. You got to have the answer for the right kind of person.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Just, I love that. I love that, Sade.

Sade Curry: No, it's so fun. One of my favorite ones is for the overly spiritual people. So I teach—and I'm not giving away all my secrets, but it's kind of fun. I'll just give one. So this one is for, if you are going through a divorce and you have these overly spiritual people who are trying to force the marriage to stay together, even if the marriage is dangerous or damaging or traumatic, I tell them, just ask them for prayer. Every time they call you and say, "My God, what's happening?" Just say, "You know, may the Lord's will be done. Please pray for us." There's like, they're like, and then I would do that. People would call me with judgment or whatever. I'd be like, "No, the Lord's will be done. Just pray for me." And they would pray and then we'd finish the phone call and I'd go back and continue putting together stuff for my attorney.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Actually, that's a great idea because you know, there were all these people thinking about phrases for when people are like, "Oh, why aren't you married?" That's the same thing. "Why aren't you married yet?" You have to have stock answers for those aunties and uncles. But I like that because that's the other part too, for people being able to, you know, the kind of support that you provide with your coaching, because that's the thing. There's so many other relationships that people have to balance while they're trying to focus on their self-growth and figure out what's going on. So having the support and the tools, right. So you're not expending energy and expending emotions while you're trying to get things done. I like that. I like the stock phrases.

Sade Curry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of the things you mentioned in the book was, and I loved this so much because this has been one of my philosophies as well, is the phrase "time heals all wounds." And you said it's how you use the time that determines your healing. And I was like, yes. So tell us more about that.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes, right. You know, and I've had, that's the thing when you write. I think about writing as a way to engage in dialogue. Because even in science and medicine, you have some of your absolute facts, the data, but even when you get into writing out your conclusion, sometimes you get people that have a conversation and say, "Well, these are the results. I would look at it this way."

So I look at this and anytime I do a book reading or I'm with people as an opportunity for dialogue, because again, everything's not unique. And I put it very early in the book that you may open it up and say, "Well, it's easy for you. You were a two-income family. Of course you can co-parent. You didn't have to..." I had to downsize to do a lot of things, but it's not about saying that this way is the way for everyone. And I've had people come up and say, "Well, time doesn't heal all wounds." Does it? I was like, but it's an opportunity to have a conversation to engage.

The reason I say that is that over time, just like in any physical wound, initially it's raw. It's like you cut yourself or you hit something in an accident. It's raw, it's hard, it's inflamed, it's painful, all of that stuff. Over time, with the right care and nurture, it heals and sometimes there are setbacks. Even when people have a burn, you're healing and then one day something happens, you reopen the scab again, it's tough, but over time it becomes a scar.

Now you'll remember it like your divorce, you're different and the goal is, you're different better and stronger and wiser, or are you different, so scarred and broken that your life is so defined by that event? So how that happens and who's there to help heal that. So I think how you spend that time while you're healing is what helps with—when you see that scar, it's there. So it's not erasing the fact that you got divorced. It's never about erasing the fact that at one point you were very hurt and there was the end of something that you didn't think. And even if you were the one who ended the marriage—because lots of times women end the marriage, men end it, same-sex couples, whoever pulls the plug, something is done in there. It's why this happens.

But how you do that through that time so that that pain and the trauma ends up in something that helps you move forward. And it's not something that keeps putting you back. How you spend that time is important. Who is your support system? Who is around you during that time? How much time are you giving to protect yourself? Like I need the time to heal and how am I healing? If I need therapy, am I getting therapy? If I want group coaching or group therapy, am I doing it? And being so introspective that you're doing what you need for you.

So you may have four friends who chose group therapy, that may not work for you because you're not somebody who wants to share in a group setting. You may need a one-on-one. You may have somebody who decided that they needed to withdraw completely from people for a while. You may need a little bit more. So you have to know yourself.

So divorce—that time allows you to know yourself, to know what you need and who you need. And part of that, the example you gave about people calling and all of that, that time also—who are you? You start to notice there's some phone calls you get or conversations you're in. When you leave those conversations, do you feel depleted or uplifted? And if you keep finding out that every single time you get off that phone call, you feel worse than you did before, then you can't do that. You don't have the emotional bandwidth to be in that.

So the time sometimes is disengaging from people who drain you or who make you feel guilty or who make you feel less than, all of those things. And they figure out how you protect your time to be able to do things that bring you joy. Go back to memories of your childhood if there are things that you did before you became an adult and life started life-ing. Things that brought you joy—painting, drawing, writing. Some of your divorced women find skills and things where they're like, "My gosh, I used to love to do that at 12 and now I'm doing that and it's bringing me so much joy."

So how you use that time, who is in your space is going to really determine when you emerge better and bolder and wiser. And it doesn't mean it's linear. You know that sometimes you think you've moved this far and then a particular word, a phrase, memory, a smell, a place takes you right back to something in your marriage and you just kind of—but that's giving yourself the compassion and grace to know that it's okay. I'm human.

Sade Curry: Yeah, 100%. And even if it seems linear, there are layers, right? Like I can actually document what I was—if I go through my nine years since divorce, I was healing a lot of different things because I actually had some things that happened in my childhood that I hadn't dealt with. I'd never been to therapy before I got divorced. I thought I was fine. I was like a good Christian lady and I had it together in my opinion. I laugh at that version of myself now because of how much I've grown and the work I've done.

When I started, I actually started with a 12-step program because therapy—I didn't even know that that was where I needed to go. So it was from there that I went to therapy, then I moved into coaching, then I continued. But the first things I actually started to heal was—I was trying to heal the divorce, but the divorce was ongoing. So there was a lot of hurt happening as I was in it, in real time. So I couldn't even really start the healing on the divorce because it was like a whole lot of craziness.

So a lot of what the first set of programs that I did, did for me was actually heal my childhood. So the things that we did in 12 Steps, their philosophy, which of course is not the only philosophy and it's not for everyone, they go, "Okay, well you're going through this, it's got to have something to do with your childhood, let's explore that." And I was like, whatever I need to do to get better is what I'm gonna do.

And so I actually was healing my childhood trauma first of all, then as I was going through the divorce, that spilled over into healing from the divorce and things like that. Then there was helping my kids because of the nature of our family dysfunction, they had been affected even during the marriage by a lot of things. So I was like trying to figure out, okay, what do they need? And how do I even heal my own way of parenting? And so that healing had happened. There was just healing of relationships, friendships, healing money and thoughts about money and thoughts about being on my own and thoughts about growing a business. It was really in many different ways and I think our brain is really good at protecting us from dealing with too much. So it will come up later. You might not know it's coming, but it's coming.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes, yes, absolutely. That is, it's like, you're absolutely right. It's that self-protection mode that your brain kicks into like, okay, we can't deal with this right now. And sometimes some memories get unlocked and you're like, where did this come from? And then it's something that you have to process.

And I love how you said, "I was just like, whatever I need to get better," right? And that's that—you know, you remember what I have on the tips on staying positive, getting better, not bitter, because during that process of trauma and hurt, your goal was how can I get better? It wasn't about "this is just this." You wanted to get better. You wanted to figure out how to best support your kids, how to be the best parent to them.

And that was again, when I talk about my impetus for writing, it was also just anything that I learned in the process on how to be positive, how to get help when you need it, who needed to be in your space, how to support your kids. I have a whole section—that's the first part of the thing is about you and the kids. If you do have children, how do you again, make sure that as much as you can, because you and I know, when you look at the statistics for kids of divorce, they're not very good.

Sade Curry: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): There are always stats about kids of divorce are statistically more likely to—every book that I picked up in 2005. And I knew that also before then just hearing about stats. But what I knew as an academic, and that's my nerd, was like, one of the things they teach you right away in epi is that you cannot apply statistics to an individual. Statistics are great. It allows you to say 80% chance of XYZ. If you do this, you have a risk reduction of 40% on your cholesterol, blah, blah, blah. But that does not apply to the one person sitting in front of you.

So we use stats. And I always tell my patients like, these are the stats. They're good for population dynamics. It doesn't tell you about the one person in front of you. So I said, this is the research on kids of divorced parents, but they're not absolute. It tells you they're more likely to, well, the divorce is the thing that is the objective thing. It happened. But all of these other things are what we call variables, right? So what are the variables in there that you can control for to improve the outcome? And those variables are usually the adults. The kids are the kids in that.

So what are some of those things? They say, well, how about how we parent them through that, making sure that they don't become a therapist, making sure we don't dump all of the stuff on them. Making sure that whatever guilt they're already feeling, because kids always feel guilty—like, is it our fault that the parents are not together?—that we don't amplify that. Making sure that our own issues around the stress of finances and all that are not projected on them. Protecting their childhood.

So if you're a woman, you have your friends over, you're talking. If you have to talk about your ex and trash him, do it without the kids in the room, because that's defining how they see relationships and what they think about stuff. If you're dating and you have people in your life, really protect your kids. Make sure that they are protected physically, mentally, emotionally. Don't expose them to people if this is not a real thing. And even if it is and they're exposed to that, listen and watch your kids. There are verbal cues, nonverbal cues. There's a lot of abuse and things that happen in relationships when it's in the dating thing.

So it's really important to, because all of those things are things that do contribute to these outcomes or when kids are isolated from their other parent. Now, if there's abuse, and I put it in the book, if there's abuse and if there's a dangerous situation where they should not be around that co-parent, absolutely. But if it's just because the two parents can't be together, we should not use the kids as pawns. There's a reason that people have a relationship with the other parent.

So some of those things we can do as adults can help so that their trauma of being—they also want their parents to get back together, for the most part. Unless they've seen a lot of trauma during the marriage where they're relieved when it actually disengages and then kids also don't always—just like adults. Some people are a lot more talkative and will tell you in real time what they're feeling. Some kids withdraw. Some don't say anything.

So like you said, you just wanted to know, what should I do? How do I get—for some of the kids, it's engaging them, trying to draw them out. For some is just listening to everything that they have to say and their anger and trauma. For some, it's watching for signs of mood changes. But that's you or your audience as somebody going through this saying, "I want to be better for me. I want to be healed and I want to do the best I can for the kids." It's never perfect. Parenting is never perfect, ever.

Sade Curry: Yeah, 100%. Even in the—I held up air quotes—"perfect families," parenting is never perfect.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): And there is no perfect family. Absolutely not.

Sade Curry: Yes. So you talked a lot about self-care, support system. Tell us more about how did you design your own support system around moving through this?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes. So the short answer is relationships matter. Relationships matter because we can't—if you go through life being transactional in your relationships, when you get to a hard stop, when you need a lot of help, it's going to be hard to find stuff. So that's just kind of a general thing. When you have friendships and family and friendships that are strong, people that you care about, pouring into them also because there will be times in any friendship or relationship where somebody needs a bit more in that bank. Somebody is going through stuff and you're giving, giving, but you know that that person's been there for you. It's a seesaw.

So my support system was literally first my faith, my family, and then we'll talk about the friends. The faith is just, you know, family rooted in faith. And I just believe that, you know what? I'm going to get through this, right? Like this is a chapter in my life. The story's been written. It's not done yet. I know I'm 35. I'm like, this can't be all of it, right? It's definitely not what I planned. I mean, literally we had just moved into the home that was going to be the home. We had the massive home, two physician couple, and I even had—we had the second dining area. It's like when the kids start dating, this is where we're going to grill the boyfriend. So you have all these plans and then it's like, but okay. So one was faith.

Second is family. Family in the sense that you're loved, you know you're loved unconditionally and that they're there to support you. They had—that was the thing my parents felt and they still talk about it. They felt so handicapped because they didn't know, shut up, praying and just saying whatever you need because they were not going through a divorce. They had, you know, as parents, a lot of things we can tell our kids from personal experience—like, you need to study because this, you need to do this. We know, even if you haven't tried substances, you know. But for divorce, they were like, they didn't know. They just wanted to make sure, "Are you guys sure?" They tried, they want everyone together. They also were dealing with the stigma of divorce—we're from Nigeria, right? The stigma of divorce, they also felt like, it's gonna be—they just felt sorry, like, "Oh my God," and the divorce stigma is a lot more—

Sade Curry: For anything, it doesn't even matter what it is, for anything. But that's a whole other conversation.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): They just felt, but once they were like, okay, this is happening. It was like, how can we support you? Pray for you, come visit as much as we can, all of that. My siblings, support system, and their friends. Some of them were very old friends who just kind of leaned in and in the way that I needed. Just if you need to talk, we're here, we'll pray for you. Let us know how we can help.

You lose friends and you know that too. You lose friends. Some people who you thought were more solid than you've gone. They do the slow fade. Some people were your friends as a couple and they don't know how to navigate. They don't want to pick sides, so they just disengage.

But then you have new people come into your life. You have to be open for some people who, you know, either through hobby. So I started to do things that I enjoyed. I would go to art classes. I loved dancing so I started taking Zumba and stuff and I would meet other women and some of them were just more like okay dance class every Tuesday but then some of them you have a conversation, you realize you have things in common. So I made some new friends. Again, I don't have a lot of friends. I have a lot of acquaintances but my circle is still pretty tight.

And that's how I use that. Some of those friends traveled, we would travel, but we created psychologically safe spaces where we could talk, no judgment, advice. You don't have to take everyone's advice. You can listen, you can edit it, you can take it. But that was how I curated that.

Because I worked really hard on making sure that I had a strong co-parenting relationship, the girls were every other weekend spent with their dad. Some days during the week they would go because I would have a standing class on Wednesdays, I'd do Zumba, and they would go with him. If I had to go travel for conferences, they would stay with their dad because I really wanted them to have a strong relationship with their dad. And that helps me also to have some of my private time to do things I needed to do.

But that was that support system. And then just reading and figuring out ways to get better and take time to introspect because you always have to introspect and say, you know what, when something ends, was it a hundred percent that person's fault? Most times it's not. It may be, but I also figure out are there some things that I needed to do differently or better just so that you grow so that if you do choose to go into another relationship, another marriage, are there things that from that you learned and grew from?

Also a lot of part of my growth and self-support was spending time with myself because especially if you—I mean, you go through school, you go, you know, then you start dating and then you get married and you have kids and there are very few times that you just like stop. It's a hard stop and you're just kind of like, okay, I've gotten married. I've done all this stuff that I thought I wanted to do. And the divorce is a hard stop. And then it's kind of, so what next? Right, so what next?

Sade Curry: Yeah, yeah. It really helps you redefine yourself. I'd love how you said psychologically safe spaces. That was not a word or a phrase that I knew during my divorce, but I knew the concept because I really struggled to—you know, I was an extrovert. So I had a lot of people in my life. I was very active in my church. I had friends, there were families that I got together with my kids, two couple families. I mean, sometimes we'd be at someone's house, whoever had the biggest house, and there would be like, I don't know, 20 kids running around between all the families or we'd be at a park.

So when I did get a divorce, when it happened, it happened more like a sudden separation that was pretty traumatic and then everything flowed from there. I struggled because there was a lot of people in my life and the responses were very, very varied, just like you described. And that was hard for me because I was like, "What is happening?"

And so one of the things I started doing when I realized that, okay, again—one of the things I learned in 12 steps that I love is you take responsibility for your experience. Like, yeah, things may be happening, people may be doing things, but you have to take responsibility for the fact that it's happening around you. Like you can, as an adult, you have choices in all of these situations. You may not be the person doing the wrong thing, but you have choices.

And so I started doing a Sunday audit of my relationships. I was—I'm pretty nerdy too, you know, we like data.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): You know, we like facts, like data and we love best practices. As you're talking now, I was just like, you know, tell me.

Sade Curry: I was confused by a lot of things. I didn't like that. So I would do a Sunday audit of who did I text this week? How did I feel? What happened? Who did I talk to? Who talked to me at church? Things like that. And I ended up, some people, like you said, did the slow fade and I ended up letting some people go. And it wasn't all because we had a fight. In fact, one particular situation was actually a little bit heartbreaking. I was actually thinking about this person the other day and I was like, I actually miss her.

But what had happened was, she had offered to babysit my kids and maybe drive them because they had activities and I was going back into the workforce. And so I took her up on her offer. We were very close, but my daughter came back from one of those rides one day and said, "This lady was asking me if I was praying for my dad." She was, unknowingly—she's a lovely person—turning my daughter into a therapist for her dad, advocating for her father to my daughter who was not quite 14 at the time.

And I knew enough at the time that I was like, this can't continue. And she's not the kind of person that you—she was like an auntie. So it's not the kind of person that you would tell her, "Don't you dare." So I had to withdraw because I was like for my—I mean, I can handle her saying that and I just ignore her. But I was like, my daughter is at a very young, impressionable stage. She's a young woman and I didn't want her set up for a similar experience that I was having.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): And that's what the stats, you know, like XYZ, but it's all about you. That's a great example.

Sade Curry: Yeah. So that was, yeah, I still think about that. And I was like, I had to do what I had to do because, you know, there were so many factors. It wasn't just me. They were my kids and things like that. But I love that you said we really have to think about our support system. Who's around us.

One of the books I read at that time was by Henry Cloud, called "Safe People." This is one of his lesser known books called "Safe People" and how to identify who is actually safe for you. And when you said psychologically safe, I was like, yes, I remember. And I remember not knowing what that was. I just thought everyone was fine.

What was interesting is my best friend at the time—she did it. It wasn't even a slow fade. Like she and I were best friends. Our daughters were best friends. And she was just like, "Okay, here's a little help and I'm out." And so when I look at my life now, the people that I call my best friends—one of them was actually my friend. She was already my friend. In fact, she'd been my friend longer than this other person. But I didn't recognize her as a safe person. I didn't know.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): But you got closer. Yeah. No, it's, I have a whole thing in the book around the friendships and the things that happen. And you made so many excellent points just now in terms of so many things were happening, and that's the thing. It's like, you said, "You know what? It's our life." We're not extras and we're not like—we are. You're the main character in your life. You have to be an active participant.

And I love that idea, but it's that forced stop because a lot of times when you go from high school and college and get married and have kids, everything's just there and then you have to—it's when you have to stop or things like that happen that you kind of—and then I have a thing about us offering when people offer help.

You know, receiving help is good, but really understand that perception. Because some people, not everybody who offers help needs to be there because sometimes it's a way to get access to you. And I have it in there. Like for some people, it's a way to get access to your information because now they've dropped off something and they're like, "So what happened today?" And this and that, and the way you are in your journey, some days you don't want to keep talking about that stuff. And so I have a whole thing about help when it's offered—both the discernment and the perception to know.

And then talking about the kids and everyone running around together, there were people who stopped inviting my kids to play dates after the divorce. There's so many things that hurt. Friendships where you thought—and they just, I guess they didn't want you around or they think—some people think your divorce is contagious, right? "You guys broke up, they start hanging around, they start talking to their wives and they're going to get divorced." All of a sudden your kids become pariahs and so there's so many levels and layers of hurt, but as long as you kind of keep staying focused, like, "I'm just going to make sure that all of these—because there's so many things that could make you bitter, literally, not just the trauma of your divorce, but how friends treat you, what happens with your kids, sometimes the financial difficulties and readjustments that have to happen. There's so many things that could make you bitter, but then you're like, then that means that this one thing in my life defined the course of my life. And the course of my life is that I'm now this for the rest of my life, or this thing happened. Yes, all of these things happened, but it's my life. I only have this one life. How am I going to navigate the rest of the life knowing that this experience happened? And yes, it did change me, but boy, I'm not going to navigate my life less than because of this thing." But yeah, the help one is...

Sade Curry: Yeah. Developing that resolve, resolving to not just be different, like fixing yourself, but resolving to have a different story. I love what you said about watching out for the help. I call it—and this happens in dating too. I tell my dating clients the same thing. I was like, make sure that what's happening in your life is not someone's soap opera. You know how we used to entertain ourselves with soap operas. Some people are just there for the entertainment.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Oh, I put it in there too. I mean, that's the thing. The whole book is what, 80 or 100 pages. I have it in there because it was again, and that's why when you talk to people, while there are a lot of things that are unique, there's a lot of things that happen to people as they're going through divorce. Different stories, maybe different characters, but very similar themes. And that's a big one too about sharing your business. It's your life. You can choose to share as much and as little as you want. It doesn't matter how much people—because sometimes that even impedes because the word gets back to the kids. Sometimes you are putting together a separation or divorce agreement, then something inflames something. So you just need to protect your privacy.

Because I did a radio thing a couple of years ago when the book first launched. And the guy was asking me—it was an African American guy—like, "You know, people like to be in your business and this person wants to..." And they're like, "So how's the divorce going?" I said, "You know, one of the things you can say is like, 'Yeah, and how's your marriage going?'" Because, you know, I mean, you can ask.

And I said the biggest way to stop people from keep prying into your stuff is just have so much going on for yourself. When you have like this peace that's going on or you're so busy doing stuff, you're taking care of the kids, you're trying to get your career back on track—or sometimes things are falling off when people are so devoted into the marriage or sometimes the trauma of the marriage while it was still a marriage has affected so many things.

But when you're building, you're doing therapy, you're trying to start—it's going to be hard for someone. If someone then, you're doing all this stuff and the conversation keeps being the one to know what's going on, how was this, or "We heard that your ex got remarried" and that's it. I put it in there. Yes.

Sade Curry: And you were the person who had to tell me. The Lord appointed you to come tell me? Really?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Cause sometimes people also don't know what to say, right? They don't know how to support someone, which I put a lot of things in there, things you shouldn't say to a person and how you can say things better to help them. But it's not like X-ing people and canceling them because they said one wrong thing, but you start to recognize patterns and somebody just always is about proving that they have the best advice. They know what you should do for your divorce.

They have a way of just always making you feel like every time you feel like you're making progress, they like to make—some people like to help. I put it in there. This savior complex. They like you when you're needy and you're going through phases, right? So maybe earlier in your divorce, you had a lot more days where you were in tears and you couldn't do anything. You needed someone to just help you with the kids. But then as you're emerging, like "This is my life. I can't—I have to..." Then all of a sudden, they don't like that.

Sade Curry: To help you. You're not sad. You're not grieving.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Because now you're not needy, your relationship—you're talking to them, but you're not asking them to like, "Please come save me." And then they will sometimes bring up things to get you there because they—for them, because they're in your life. And that's where you're going to be like, relationships for a reason, for a season and for a lifetime. You have your lifetime people, but their season was when you were down in the lows. And when you get up to where they should be, they just—that's not the relationship they wanted to have with you. And it's hard for them. And you're like, "Okay, this one's got to go." Because the savior complex is real.

Sade Curry: It is very real. Okay, so I wanted to save time for the good stuff. What all the listeners have—I mean, we're all divorced. Most generally everyone listening to this is divorced, but we're always here for a good love story on this podcast. But before I jump into it, I do want to ask about the times that you were single. You were single for a while and you do write a little bit about your thoughts about singleness and dating. You talk about the process you went through to figure out what was right for you at the time. But I just wanted to share, you were single for a long time. What were your thoughts about staying single? What were your thoughts about being lonely? Like did that come up and how did you process that?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yeah, yes it did. It did. And I was like—the fact that I'm married now, even when I wrote the book, I was like, you know, it was 12 years—nah. Because I told myself then in 2005 that I was never getting married again. And my family, friends, it was clear to me.

But I also have in the book, let's not judge anyone. Everyone—again, divorces are individual, marriage is individual. Your choice as an adult is individual. Never judge. People have very different needs, wants, and where they are, right? And so don't sit as a woman and judge a woman because she got married a year after her divorce. Don't judge her if she chooses never to get married. Don't judge her if she just—let her be. If she's your friend, if she's your close friend, you can advise if she asks, but it's her life.

And because you chose not to, and so that was the thing. Well, I was, "I'm never getting married again." I had three of my friends, two of them got remarried. They became close friends of mine after I got divorced. They were divorced people who were not people that were my friends, but then you know how you find new friendships. And I was the first at their weddings and it was awesome because I love love. And they got remarried and one of them really wanted to have a kid. Her first marriage she hadn't. And so her timeline was very clear, but she was very intentional about it. She went on dating sites in 2008, 2009, 2010. They weren't as many as they are now, but she was very intentional.

And that's what I say, you know, when you start to date and when you choose to date, be very clear and be honest with yourself. If you want just fun—

Sade Curry: I mean, I missed out in my teenage years and in my 20s. I'm gonna make up for it.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): If you're like, "I'm out here wilding because I've been in my"—be good with that. But be open with that and don't let anybody judge you. That's what you want, right? If you want serious and you want to recouple up, be open with that. Don't tell someone that, "I'm just out here for fun," but hoping it will become—we can't make those same mistakes again. Say what you want and mean it, right? And it's your life.

For me, I was like, "I'm never getting married again." For many years, I was just like, "I'm focused on the kids and my career." That was my thing. And you know, hey, you have vibrators, so do what you need to do. I put it in the book.

Sade Curry: I love it! Thank you! Thanks for saying that. I feel like I'm the only one who advocates for this.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): I put it in the book and my parents read it and my new mother-in-law read it. It's in there.

Sade Curry: Okay, so my take—I'll just say this real quick. How are you supposed to teach your husband what works for you if you don't know what works for you? Hello.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Exactly. Anyway, I was that and then, you know, much later, a couple of years later, I was like, okay, a couple of times I went out with people on dates, but then very—and I was very clear that I'm never going to be in a serious relationship. And there were two times when again, it was kind of like this person was like, "Okay, so where's this going?" I was like, "Nowhere because I'm not."

So after I did that, I was like, you know what? If you know that you don't want something, be very clear about it. So I just took myself out of that. I was like, "I'm good." And I remember for my parents, I told them, they were like, "You should, after the dust settled, like, companionship, you shouldn't be by yourself," this and that, all of the stories. And I was just like, I said, "You know what?" I said, "For me"—that's my younger daughter—I said, "When she goes to college, I'll date again." And I got divorced when they were six and seven. I was like, you know, I put out 18.

Sade Curry: You put it all the way out.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): I was like when she goes to college at 18, that was kind of like stop because everybody—your friends, they was trying to set you up, people always like, "Try now." I was like, "Leave me alone." But then... And I have all the things in there, all the things you can do and how you can fill up your time. And loneliness is real and all that, but yeah.

Sade Curry: So tell us about you and Chi. How did you meet? I mean, I know the story, but I want you to tell the listeners and don't say, "I didn't know anything and nothing really happened." Because when you told me the first time it was like, "It just happened magically." But I was like, it sounds like you guys kind of knew what you were doing. Like you both sound like very intentional people. And when the opportunity and the reconnection presented itself, you were very thoughtful about the process.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes. Right. Right. Because I'd been, you know, at that point—we got married, it would be five years this year. We got married in COVID in 2020. And that was 15 years after my divorce. I got divorced in '05. We got married in 2020 and we reconnected through a high school WhatsApp group thing.

Sade Curry: Congratulations!

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): And that was it. I was like, my daughter had gone off to college, the younger one. I was truly an empty nester. I started blogging about empty nesting and I was going to just do more travel. Again, still no plans for any of that stuff. I went with my—it was very interesting. I went with my class group to—they put together like a WhatsApp group for a graduating class of '86, high school class. And they had a trip to Dubai.

And they were like—I was like, my daughter left for college. I dropped her off in August and this was September. And we went on this trip to Dubai. He didn't go on this trip. He wasn't very active on the group. I went because I was an empty nester and that was my part. I'm going to be more active with my classmates and travel.

And when we got back from that trip, those of us that went on the trip just connected, so it was about 15 of us in Dubai for four days. And what we said was, we're going to be intentional about when we visit each other's cities. We kind of did a report back to the larger group. There's a hundred of us in this WhatsApp group from ISI class of '86, that we're going to be more intentional about connecting. So if someone's visiting a place, say, "Hey, I'm in town, you want to meet up for dinner," just so that we kind of like reconnect and all that.

And so that's what it was. He came to town and he was like, "Hey, who's—you know, I'm in town, you want to meet up for dinner?" Met up for dinner, had a conversation, kept chatting and that was the first time in 15 years that I was like, "I actually like a person."

Sade Curry: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we gotta break it down just a little bit. So how did you both find out you were single? Like how did that come up, right? Like he came to the city, put it in the WhatsApp, "I'll be there," you met up for dinner.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Okay. Yeah, we went for dinner and just conversation, conversation. And I had not spoken with him in 20 years or more because he went to the UK and then the US. I would say yes, we're very different people, had our lives, all of that stuff. Yeah. It was, yeah. And then we found out.

Sade Curry: Wow. I love that. It is sort of like when you put it out there, when you speak it, it just...

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): And that's the thing, like I wasn't speaking—I was in that phase of now I'm an empty nester. I had said that, okay, whenever my daughter goes to college. But even then, I said, I guess I didn't think about it.

Sade Curry: You had put it out there. You literally had put it out there when she was six.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yeah, and even then I put it out there for like, that's when I'll be serious about dating. But I still in my mind, never thought I'd get married again. Never, never. And then I met this man and I was like, "Okay, yes, I will get married again." And he proposed during COVID. Our proposal...

Sade Curry: So what happened? Did he text you during COVID? Well, first of all, you guys were having dinner. Did you meet there together before COVID or during COVID?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): It was before COVID. But he proposed during COVID, yes. So we had a long distance relationship and then he proposed during COVID. You know, there's another book. There's another book being written about that whole one. So let me not give out too much of our secrets.

Sade Curry: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, this is the Dating After Divorce Podcast. Okay, you don't wanna give away everything in the book. Alright, you guys are gonna have to get Dr. T-Fal's next book. Okay, as long as there's a book coming, because we want to know.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): There's a book coming, but also just even, you know, merging and blending families when you have adult kids and all of that stuff. It's a process, right? And just all of that. Also, you know, coupling up as adults in your fifties, right? Both of us were in our fifties.

But what it is is because you've taken time to learn yourself and know what you want, you're able to appreciate how the commitment, what it means for like a true marriage. Like love is—when they say love is not enough, you know, old people say that and that's a base because the other things of mutual respect and admiration and care and friendship and all those things that have to layer on and brutal honesty. And that's one of the things that—you've met him. He's a fine man.

Sade Curry: He's hot. I will say that.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): He's a fine man. He's a sexy man, right? But the thing that, as we had conversation, the first time we met was just intellect, his intellect and just honesty as we had conversations, right? Because my brain is wired—he jokes about it. And I was like, "My God, I can't say anything wrong. I can't say it" because my brain, I have like this thing where I'm either going to grow old and just continue to remember things. And I hope I don't just one day my brain short circuits, because I remember things from—I remember like it's a bit pathologic. Even like when I see patients, I remember what room, what corner—I mean, people I haven't seen in years.

Sade Curry: It's called a photographic memory. I love it.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): And it's crazy because stuff, right? As you have a conversation, because we lived in different cities and we're having—so most of our relationship really, and that's the other part too, our relationship was very—we talked a lot and learned each other before we actually were ever in the same physical space. So it wasn't like I was intentionally fact-checking, but my brain remembers how people say stuff and what they said exactly.

So months later, a year later, like I remember, like you're sharing stories and sometimes it's just even random stories, but like if there's a deviation from how it was said the first time, I remember. And I was just like, for me, just like the honesty, his authenticity about stuff and just his drive. And so, yeah. So it'll be five years. It's...

Sade Curry: Yeah, no, I love that. Honesty is really important, especially for women dating after a divorce. It's one of the things I bring up with my clients a lot. Like they'll be like, "I want someone honest." And I always have them take it to the next level, not just honest, but transparent. Because a person can be honest when you ask questions, but you have to know which questions to ask. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, we're not doing that. What you want is transparent. A person who is an open book to you, not necessarily an open book to the whole world."

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes. Right.

Sade Curry: But if they want to be your partner, they are an open book to you and they will reveal what they realize that you need to know without you having to dig and catch them and all that. So I definitely—that's again, one of my own core values as well is like, listen, we need transparency.

And then if you've been through a divorce and especially if you were blindsided by things, a lot of women develop a hyper-vigilance around that. Not that they're suspecting people of things, but just for their own healing and part of the environment that they need going forward is an environment of transparency and honesty and just calm, just to help calm the nervous system. I do a lot of nervous system work because the activation that can come from a divorce...

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): I know that's so important. Yeah. Because you can from there, especially if that's what precipitated something the first time. But yeah, you know, it's so interesting because you said, "Hey, I put it out there." I mean, I literally, I have stuff that I wrote down then. I was like, I said, when the kids—and I put it in the book—I told my parents and that put an end to my close friends trying to set me up with that. I was like, "When Folami goes to college, come have a conversation." They're like, "Folami is seven." I'm like, "I'm just telling you, I'm good."

Sade Curry: And apparently they all forgot.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): They all—it was so interesting. But also I also had a thing. I remembered when my parents, you know, maybe five, seven years after my divorce and stuff, "Who would you even—" I said, "One, so I'm never going to marry somebody who's never been married before because they'll have a very unrealistic expectation of marriage and they will not know. And they'll just—you need somebody who's been through it. I said two, I'm never going to get married to somebody who's a widower because then you're going to be held up to the standard of somebody that's not even alive that you can't..."

Sade Curry: Sometimes, though, sometimes not.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): I know that's true, but I was just saying for me, I said these things. I said, "I want to get married to somebody who's divorced and who has grown children." It was so crazy. I said, because I don't want to do—I said, "I do everything. So like a hundred percent and all of that stuff, like, and I know how much with the kids all the way to college." I said, "I don't want to have to do it again." But again, I said those things and that's what—so it sounds like just being knowing what you want. And if you have faith and stuff, like if this is—if I do, this is what it would look like. But even then I was still like, "But I probably would never get married again." So yes.

Sade Curry: Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. And I think I love what you said, because I mean, I teach—a lot of my program is built on people knowing their core values. I mean, our core values can vary in the way they express themselves or in the way they show, but it's really about knowing yourself. Who are you so that you know the relationship that's right for you. The relationship that's right for your friend might not be right for you. And we know that, we all know that.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): That's right. Know yourself. And that's why the work you do is so vital because the first time around, there's a lot more, I think group thing, peer pressure in that first marriage. Because obviously between your first and second marriage, you're younger, even if they're only two years apart, it's still different. Sometimes it's 10 years apart and all that. There's more like the whole, "This is how this person—this is the plan they use. This is the stuff."

But when you're doing it a second time, if you choose to couple up, whether or not marry or you live together or you become whatever, there should be a lot more intentionality because you're grown. You're older, you're wiser, you've done the work with Sade that you actually are like, "Now I know who I want to be with."

Sade Curry: Now I'm ready. Oh my God, your story is so inspiring. I cannot wait for the next book. So with that, let's tell... Yes, that might be fun. We should talk about that.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes, we'll do it together actually. That might be fun to do from different perspectives. Yeah. You know, the last page here, let me just read something I wrote here, which is very interesting because I published this in 2017. And I said, "For me, it's been a ride. And I can say that I've come out on the other side, a refined, better version of myself. I have no idea what the next decade holds for me, but I'm excited about the future. I'm thankful to God for where I am. And I know that the best is yet to come. Who knows if this good book and a glass of wine girl may eventually venture into serious dating or even remarriage." Then I put a note: "If I do, it may be the content for 'The Decade After the Decade After' book in 2027." That's what I put in here. I said, "Who knows?" This was 2017. So we have two years.

Sade Curry: It's like you are a prophet. It's like you were a prophet. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that. And I love that you were open. You were open to living and to live the life that was still available to you. Like while there was still life, there was still so much to be done and so much to experience and you were open to it. And I think that's what has brought all of the rewards that you are experiencing right now. So well done. Well done.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Thank you. This was such a great conversation.

Sade Curry: Yes. I know the listeners are gonna wanna follow your journey. They're gonna wanna know when the next book comes out. Where can they find you? What is the work that you do? What can they connect to you for?

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Thank you, Sade, for saying that. The book, like we've shown in here a couple of times, "The Decade After: Thriving After Divorce," yay, that's a screenshot right there, is available on Amazon. It's also available on our website, tifalandchi.com, t-f-a-l-a-n-d-c-h-i.com. You can order there, an autograph.

Sade Curry: And it'll be in the show notes. The link will be in the show notes for those listening.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Yes, thank you. You can get from the website, you can get an autographed copy. From Amazon, it's not autographed. And it's available like Sade said, just in print, in audio and in Kindle. So there's an audio book. And again, you can find me on Instagram. It will be in the show notes, Dr. T-Fal on Instagram and also on LinkedIn. And Chi and I have like a wellness and coaching consulting service, but I also do...

Sade Curry: Which I have been a part of and it is fantastic. They make you work. I mean, it's—okay. So let me—I didn't even prep for this part because we were talking about relationships, but Dr. Toyin, Dr. T-Fal and her husband Chi are wellness experts. They are fit and fine. Both of them. Like seriously, you would not know they were the age that they are for how healthy both of you are. And it seems like you both share a passion for, like, you've taught us, like, how to cook, you've taught us how to work out, you host workout classes, like, it's so good.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Thank you so much. Yeah. So thank you so much, Sade. Love, love. So yes. And I also help with physicians specifically who are looking at career transitions from academia to pharma, pharma to nonprofit, just career transitions and things like that. So I also have a podcast, "10 Minutes with T-Fal," just 10 minutes of quick, quick pithy things on relationships, self-growth, really just empowering women.

So again, I have—I've had an excellent, excellent time since you and I met a couple of years ago and just our conversations, always very insightful. I wrote down a couple of things from just our conversation today. So thank you for having me on your podcast. And I really hope to hear from your listeners. And I can't wait to see, hear our conversation.

Sade Curry: Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you so much. You are a blessing and you're just so inspiring to me and I'm sure to everyone who is listening. Everything will be in the show notes, listeners. We really, really appreciate your time and attention. So it was a longer episode, but worth every minute. Hopefully for you, it was worth it for me. Thank you for your time and attention. Dr. T-Fal, thank you for coming on.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Thank you and kudos for all the work that you do customizing and tailoring what people need to where they are and helping them grow. It's invaluable, the services and what you provide. And I know it's not for you another service. It's a friendship with these women and you really build and help people to succeed. So I'm glad to be a part of this.

Sade Curry: Yeah, thank you so much. All right, listeners, thank you for your time and attention and we will see you next time.

Dr. Toyin (T-Fal): Okay.