Dating After Divorce

234. Unshaming Divorce and Honoring Life with Kendell Lenice

• Sade Curry

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234.  Unshaming Divorce and Honoring Life with Kendell Lenice

About This Episode

What if divorce isn't a mark of failure, but a brave act of self-advocacy?

This week, I sit down with Kendell Lenice, certified life coach and author known as "The Remix Coach." Kendell shares her powerful story of being divorced twice, her healing journey, and how she found love again when she wasn't even looking for it.

If you've ever felt shame about divorce or wondered if you'll find love again, this conversation will shift your perspective completely.

What You'll Learn

Divorce Doesn't Define You

  • Why walking away from a marriage can be the bravest thing you do
  • How to stop letting shame keep you in bondage
  • The difference between staying married for love vs. staying for reputation

The Real Work of Healing

  • Kendell's HEAL acronym: Honor Everything About Life
  • Why you must examine your childhood patterns and trauma
  • How to forgive yourself for past relationship choices

Finding Love After Heartbreak

  • Why Kendell wasn't looking for love when she met her current partner
  • The importance of vetting (yes, we dive deep into this!)
  • How to stay open to love without being desperate for it

Red Flags and Green Flags

  • Recognizing gaslighting and emotional manipulation
  • Why your discernment matters more than giving endless grace
  • The difference between healthy and toxic relationship patterns

Key Takeaways

  1. Divorce can be mature, not shameful. Sometimes two good people just can't figure it out together.

  2. Do the healing work first. Know who you are so someone else can't persuade you to be someone different.

  3. Vet, vet, vet. Don't give away all your requirements upfront - let people show you who they are.

  4. You are enough with or without a relationship. A partner should be an addition to who you already are, not your completion.

About Kendell Lenice

Kendéll Lenice, affectionately known as “The Remix Coach,” is a Certified Life Coach, national speaker, author, and host with over 20 years of experience helping people transform their lives and relationships. Through her podcasts, powerful talks, and coaching, she mixes wisdom, humor, and heart to inspire growth and healing. A colon cancer survivor and advocate, Kendéll empowers others to turn life’s challenges into powerful comebacks. Whether on stage, on screen, or behind the mic, she brings real talk, real change, and a reminder that it’s never too late to remix your life. She's living proof that life’s remix can be better than the original.

Kendéll Lenice, known as “The Remix Coach,” is a Certified Life Coach, speaker, author/writer, and media host with over two decades of experience helping people heal, grow, and remix their lives with purpose and flair. Whether she’s dropping gems on her podcasts, lighting up a stage, or coaching one-on-one, Kendéll blends wisdom, warmth, and a touch of humor to spark transformation. A proud colon cancer survivor and advocate, she proves daily that reinvention is always possible. Kendéll empowers others to turn life’s challenges into powerful comebacks. It's all about the remix!

Kendell is the author of multiple books including:

Connect with Kendell

https://www.instagram.com/kendelllenice
https://kendelllenice.com/
https://youtube.com/

Dating After Divorce Podcast - Episode with Kendell Lenice


Sade (00:02) Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Dating After Divorce podcast. I'm Sade Curry, your host. It's good to be back today and I am back with a guest on the podcast. Well, probably one of my favorites so far because she's got an amazing story. I have Kendell Lenice here with me in the recording studio and Kendell is known as the remix coach. So she's a certified life coach, national speaker, author.

A host with over 20 years of experience helping people transform their lives and relationships. She's a podcast host, author of multiple books, including - excuse me - "Your Unhealed is Showing," love that title. And it is about healing purposefully and aging fearlessly. Kendell is a colon cancer survivor and advocate. And she has a podcast called "Grown Woman Energy" that we're going to get into today. So Kendell, welcome to the podcast.

Kendell Lenice (01:00) Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, Sade. I appreciate this conversation in advance because I know it's going to be good. Your energy is amazing. And I love what you're doing as far as dating after divorce and really having real conversations with people that may not even get to have them or witness them. So I appreciate you, and thank you for having me on your podcast.

Sade (01:23) Absolutely. My pleasure. I'm excited for our conversation today. Now you have been divorced twice, like when we talked about that. And I wanted to say something first as we got into it because I've talked to a few women who've been divorced more than once. And what I love about those conversations is how you guys have really done the work to unshame divorce. Like this is not a bad thing.

Even though in society and for many people it still feels bad that divorce happened. So before we just jump into your story, I really want to hear your thoughts on what does it mean to be a person who has been divorced? What does it mean to be a person who has been divorced twice in the light of like, is this a mark? Is this like an L on our heads that we have had a divorce?

Kendell Lenice (02:18) Not for me, not for me at all. I think it's brave to walk away, right? It's brave to be able to leave or it's brave to advocate for yourself or it's brave even for the other person to say this is not serving either one of us, right? And walking away. So it's not a mark for me. It's almost like now...

You don't want to go into any marriage getting a divorce. Like who wants that? Like nobody wants to do that. Married one, two, three, four, five, six times or whatever. And people say, you know, some might think the more that you get married, the more you're like, "Well, if this don't work out, I'm going to do..." but nobody wants to, you know, especially if you're getting married for love and the right reasons, nobody wants to get a divorce. So that's not something that people wear proudly on their chest.

But I don't feel that it should be a mark against you because you never know what somebody is going through in their marriage. You just don't know, right? I could, as so many different things between relationships and marriages, engage in all of that, I could really be nasty. I could really bash. Like I could really, you know, in some cases, but I don't. There's no positivity in that. There's nothing that I would gain from that. You're not perfect. I'm not perfect. The people aren't perfect. It's just trying to figure it out.

And what I've come to know as a woman and of course a life coach is that people bring their baggage. They bring their childhood. They bring their trauma knowingly and unknowingly. And people really in marriage are just two people trying to figure it out. And sometimes you just can't figure it out.

Sade (04:13) Yeah, yeah, 100%. Human relationships are way more complicated than people try to make it. They try to make it this simple thing. And I get what's happening. Like a lot of us, like, well, I don't want to go into too much of society and the patriarchy and all those things because there's a lot of nuance to that conversation. But it's like, we try to, it's like, in order to feel safe, I think we human beings have tried to like make relationships very simple. Like, okay.

You find the right person, you marry them, and you stay together forever. And it's like one plus one equals two, but one plus one doesn't necessarily equal two, especially in those contexts, because you have two human beings with all kinds of experiences in life, and people change as they grow. Things happen. I interviewed a woman who, she and her husband lost a child, and their marriage didn't survive the child. They were very amicable. He was a good man, she was a good woman.

But they were both reminders of what had happened in their marriage to their child and they were just like, "Just cannot, we can't really look at each other every day anymore." So I appreciate you saying that because it's like, listen, I think divorce is kind of like, you know, if a partnership dissolves in business, nobody shames anybody for that. Or if your children move away from home because they're pursuing something better, nobody says, "Oh my God, your child didn't stay living in your house." And I think we need to normalize, maybe like just, some relationships end, you know, for varying reasons.

Kendell Lenice (05:42) Yes, and it used to be shame and that's a great point. And I used to feel shame. You used to feel like, "Yeah, well, you can't go the distance." But I could have if I wanted to, right? There's so many people that focus on, "We've been together 10 years, we've been married 20 years, we've been married 30 years." And I know some of the hell that they've gone through. To be honest, I know because they've told me. But on social media, you wouldn't know.

They don't even talk. They aren't in the same room. They don't eat together. I was just talking to my boyfriend yesterday saying, I know somebody who did it for a month and didn't even talk to their spouse in the same household for a month. So to me, people focus on the number of years and if they could stick and stay and then stick to it-ness. And then sometimes you question like, "Well, could I have?" And then the answer is no, because you're betraying yourself.

You know, or you're accepting things that you may not want. It may not be abuse or it may not be anything strong, but just if you, if nobody is talking to you, how about that? If somebody is ignoring you when you're talking, that's emotional abuse. People don't even understand that. Right? So it's a lot of things that we could all stay married. There would be no divorce if we just dealt with everything. It wouldn't be a 50-50.

But people are realizing the value in themselves. So it does have a stigma, you know, before I could really understand that there is a piece of shame because you don't want to, but I'm the type of person, I'm never going to allow shame to keep me in bondage somewhere I don't want to be. Even if it's not a toxic marriage, but if it's just not one that's working, right? And if it's not...

Spirit I promote healthy relationships even in my podcast remixing relationships. I talk about it often like promoting healthy relationships and doing things differently. So if you've only seen dysfunctional relationships you may not even realize that's called dysfunction if you've only seen how unhealthy relationships. You don't even know that it's unhealthy financially spiritually mentally physically we can go on and on and on.

So there's a lot of things that we could be ashamed about and God sees all. And I pray, you know, and just leave it with him because as you mature and get older and you experience different things in life, you start to see things differently in value. And some people just want to be a wife. That's all they want to be. So they're going to stick and stay because that's their identity.

That's their reputation. That's they built the name. So they will stay until they don't. And that's why you see people 30 years in getting divorced, because they've been miserable to last 15.

Sade (08:38) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, and so for someone who wants to stay and that is their thing and that is growth and thriving for them, that's 100% okay. But everyone is different and I think for each person, especially for each woman, always balancing quality with quantity. Whatever your definition of quality is, a quality life, a quality relationship, a healthy relationship. Is this healthy? Is this quality?

And it's okay to self-reflect, it's okay to question, it's okay to think about it and come to like, "Yeah, this is, I mean, I'm racking up the years, but I'm not racking up the quality." All right, so I wanted to kind of start with that, like, okay, you've been divorced twice, tell us a little bit about your story. Just start from like, this is what my marriage story was and this is what my, we're gonna jump into your dating story because you're now in a long-term relationship and I wanna hear all about that too.

Kendell Lenice (09:21) Okay, absolutely. So the first time I got married, I was 20 years old. We're still best friends to this day, you know, but I was 20 years old, you know. And I think I got engaged, I guess 19, maybe something like that. But that was a good experience. I moved 3000 miles away from home. I moved from the East coast to the West coast and...

You know, when you're that young, you just don't even understand. You're your parents' child. So now you're your parents' marry person. You just, you you don't know. Even I was very mature for my age. I always have been. I think of now going backwards. I'm more like, you know, I'm more loose now, you know, in free, I should say, than I was even then. I think then I was a little more uptight and, you know.

Value system because I was following the structure of my mom and I still have that as my route but. You really don't even know who you are at 20 years old, you know and being a wife. You know, you don't see that and then if my mom is divorced I you know, I don't see that so you think about that but that was the communication was just off and when I talk about communication, it's like...

If something was wrong, he might just go take out the trash and then come back and be like, "Okay, let's eat." There was no dialogue. So we didn't have arguments, but we didn't communicate effectively either. And it takes two people to do that. So, you then you, you, you know, you go into situations that are, you know, after a while, that's just not serving you. And I will say this.

I got married once and God was like, "Not him, don't do it. No." And I have strong discernment and I went ahead with it, even though I knew in my heart and soul and what God was saying and not because of desperation, not because of, "Nobody will marry me again." None of that, just based off of, sometimes people will weaponize even God.

And say, "God told me," I'm like, "Well, God didn't tell me," right? Or they'll say, "Well, God wants you to," you know, and speak in certain ways that are not necessarily healthy. They could be manipulative. And once you're in it, you see certain things, you know, nobody in marriages are an angel. Nobody is perfect. Everybody has challenges, but it's certain things that are not conducive to your mental health.

Sade (12:17) So did you feel like you were influenced into moving forward with the marriage?

Kendell Lenice (12:37) Yes, I have been, I'm not even going to tell you how many times I've been proposed to, because it sounds crazy when I say it out loud, seven times. Seven times. I don't, this is not something certain people, the people close to me know, but this is not something that I go around saying because I'm very sensitive to some women who have not even been proposed to one time. You know, and what that feels like. Yeah. I never looked at it that way.

Sade (12:47) I think it's an example of abundance. I think it's an example that abundance exists.

Kendell Lenice (13:06) I never looked at it that way.

Sade (13:07) Yeah.

Kendell Lenice (13:08) And if I counted in the first time I got proposed to was in the fourth grade, but that doesn't count. That's just like a bonus one over there. That's if I counted that it be more, but in the fourth grade. So my experiences, I never was like grown that person that grew up was like, "Oh, I can't wait to be a wife. I can't wait to get married." Like I didn't play dress up and wedding. I didn't do any of that. And when I was in the fourth grade, it really introduced me. His name was Anton. I cannot think of his last name, but we were in the fourth grade and he gave me a big old diamond ring. When I say big old, big old diamond ring, he asked to marry me. He put a tape around it. I went home and told my mother, "Anton asked to marry me" and she looked at the ring. This was a real ring. She looked at the ring.

Sade (13:59) Took his mama's ring.

Kendell Lenice (14:00) He found, yes, she found, it's so funny, she found his mother's number, I guess, through the school. The mother was looking all over for her wedding ring. The little boy then took the wedding ring and proposed. Well, needless to say, that was, you know, the end of our engagement.

Sade (14:20) That's so cute!

Kendell Lenice (14:21) Yup, got down on his knee, everything in the classroom. So I guess that was the trajectory of my life, you know, and then you get, you know, annulments along the way or divorce along the way. So I don't even count the numbers. You get what I'm saying? What I do is celebrate the experiences because even in marriages, multiple and I want encourage people who have been married more than once more than twice three times four times five and so on and so on. I'm the type of person I don't look at that as a bad thing I look at it as that was something that you decided to do that was something that you were looking for love or hope or whatever somebody is looking for and oftentimes people like "Dang what's wrong with them?" Halle Berry was like "Why does something have to be wrong with me because I won't deal with certain things?" And I'm a hopeful romantic. I'm looking for love. So I look at people differently. I don't judge it because you never know why someone chose the way that they did. And even in the book that you're going to talk about, I talk about choices and forgiving yourself for that. It's just like when you're in those moments, you're living based off of what your feelings are, what you believe, what's in front of you, your experiences. So people make choices for certain reasons. I talked to one lady, she said, "Because I didn't think nobody was ever gonna propose to me again." So I said, "So it's just interesting." I believe that they're unorthodox teachers. And sometimes we need those type of teachers in our lives to teach us, to show us.

And then hopefully growing from that and some of the choices or decisions that we made then. Like at now, I'm about to be 54 years old. I'm not making choices and decisions that I even made two years ago, four years ago. Darn sure not 10 years ago. You get what I'm saying? So it really is a journey and we have to look at even why we choose, like what happened in childhood or trauma or parental situate, all of that plays a part in people's journey for sure. And I can say mine too, if I think about it.

Sade (16:46) Yeah, I think taking a, yeah, taking a less of a black and white look at that journey, because I love the reframe that you had, like someone who's been married three or four or five times is you can look at it like, this is a person who is a loser and cannot hold a marriage or has poor relationship skills. That's one way to look at it. Another way, kinder way to look at it.

Is this person is looking for love. This person wants to be loved the way all of us want to be loved. All of us are looking for love. Now, they may or may not have the skills to receive love or give love or choose love in a way that is healthy for them or nourishing for them. Obviously, there things that are missing because they didn't want to have five or six or seven divorces. However, for a lot of people who do get divorced, they didn't go into it not looking for love. Even the people who are quote unquote, you're a quote unquote narcissist or manipulative jerks, all the actual toxic people, they do exist. People don't like us to use those words, but I'm like listen, if you've met some people, you will know there's a reason the Bible talks about the wicked man. They exist.

Kendell Lenice (17:50) Let me tell you something I know. No.

Sade (18:08) Yeah, so even for those people, they were not not looking for love. Even those people are basically looking for love. Now they have a warped sense of what love is and in a sense using and abusing people. However, they're not, because they could choose to go into a cave and be by themselves. Like human beings are as a species, we are looking for belonging, we are looking for social, a community, we're looking for support and nurture.

How that plays out, of course, some ways better, some ways worse, but I love your reframe that it's just people are looking for love and that's what this is. A lot of times people will judge divorced women who are dating. There's a lot of judgment around it. There's some of the judgment around like, "Well, it's really hard to find a healthy relationship in 2025 because there's all this stuff going on and a lot of men and the dating pool and all those things." And I'm like, okay, some of that is true. However, that doesn't take away the fact that we were created for community and for belonging and connection.

Kendell Lenice (19:12) And connection and I think that's what people really are looking for is that solid connection, you know, and I think it's multiple times you in those moments, you definitely want that connection. You know what I mean? I've never gotten married to anyone that I at that moment that I didn't think was a good fit or connection, even though God was saying what he was saying. So,

I've learned, I've always had strong discernment since I was little, but I didn't always obey it and acknowledge it. Like I would, because I am that type of person, like, well, like not so much make an excuse for somebody, but give them grace. And had to understand that I'm not the author of my life. I'm giving somebody grace who God was like, "No, no, no." And that's something that I had to grow through and to learn.

And even if God is saying it's a stop sign, Kendell, why are you giving them a caution sign or why are you still proceeding? So that was something I had to deal with myself with and really understand that. Not put it based, not put my, because I have betrayed myself a million times when it comes to that. So I had to really look into myself and say, "Why are you putting them above you and what you know and what God told you?" So if that, if I had to go through everything that, you know, cause all relationships that end aren't bad. All divorces aren't bad. You can live and you can end and amicably. It's not all bad. But what I had to learn is in all, you know, and so, and I think people think that, divorce and you can't stand each other. You don't like each other. No, it's a mature act.

You know, some people are more mature than others when it's handled. Some people, depending on their origin, they may not be able to deal with rejection. And then that's when you get all of the craziness. But some people can sit and have a conversation. It's like, "This is not serving both of us. Go down." I remember I went with my one ex and we've gone down, filed together, had lunch afterwards. So it's not and we're still tight. So it's not always, you know, bad. But you gotta understand that why some of the choices in decision and that's what the healing is about. After every divorce, every breakup, both parties should take a minute for themselves and really say, "What could I have done differently? What part did I play and how can I heal and why did I make the decisions?" And that's so important to do.

You know, we as people don't always do that, but that's something that's very important to me.

Sade (22:08) Yeah, yeah, love that. And I know you and your ex, or at least one of your exes have a very amicable relationship and your families get together. Tell us about that. How did you create, at least with the person that it was possible to create that with, it's not possible in every situation, but when you are able, when that opportunity is there, how did you create that? How did you make space for that?

Kendell Lenice (22:14) It's so funny because like I told you, we didn't really argue and he's not an arguably arguable. It's not, know, why is my tongue in the pot? It's argument. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. I'm like, "Wait a minute." He's not argumentative. He's definitely not. And I don't want no smoke. I don't want no drama. I could get along with pretty much everybody.

Sade (22:41) I hear you. I think it's argumentative, I think is the, that's what it is, yeah.

Kendell Lenice (22:59) If I can't get along with you, something's going on because I will give everybody grace and find something, right? But he's not argumentative at all. And remember I said the communication was the issue, so it wasn't really, you know. But I've known him since I was 18. And it really had become a point like that's my family. He's my family.

Like I told you how old I was, so he's been there. You know, in my kid's life, that's what it is, right? So it's easy because we were friends and we didn't have a lot of strife and arguing and abuse and name calling. You know, it wasn't any of that. So it's easy to be able to still connect because if you have, you know, if you have children with somebody, you're going to see the person, right? So it just was normal. It was not something that we tried to do. It was just normal. I'm tight with his wife. You know, she had children prior to I would take her children with my children and go to the movies. I would do, you know, her hair. I would do her children, her daughter's hair. Like it just was natural. And people couldn't...

They were like, "That is so like," I would have events. I would invite her to my events, different things like that. So it's just was a natural, naturally designed, organic type of family shit. Like in my mind, because it's been so long, don't even, he is my ex-husband, but I don't, I see him as family. And it's just even with my boyfriend now, my ex-husband had a big birthday. He came with me. My ex-husband's wife was like, told my boyfriend, "Welcome to our big crazy family. This is us." So it's just, that's just what it is. Even with my ex-husband's wife, he had his big birthday coming up and she asked me to help her plan it. And I'm the ex-wife and she's the wife. So it's just, you know, it's just family.

So having a situation where you get a divorce and it's not like that and other things happen, that's the odd part to me. Most people, it's odd to them that you get along in your family, but it's odd to me not to.

Sade (25:28) As it should be, but when I say should, of course, that's not the state of our planet necessarily, but yes, we are all parts of each other, but it just seems like depending on how your condition programmed, what happened to you, trauma, all the things, hard to get everyone on board with we are all parts of each other.

Kendell Lenice (25:40) Right. So when I used to hear people say that they didn't, or it was a tumultuous divorce, or it was this and this person did this in the divorce and this person tried to do this, that I didn't understand that until I had to go through it. You get what I'm saying?

Sade (26:04) Yeah. And was that your second relationship, the one where you went through more of the challenges? Yeah. And it's definitely, it's hard to understand it when you haven't been in it. And unfortunately, it's like, it's easy to repeat it if you've been in it. That's always one of those things where I'm always telling people we have to sit, we have to self-reflect because it's so easy to repeat what you already know.

I know my relationship, my first marriage was definitely quite toxic and the divorce was really hard. And in fact, my, what was, I was reading through, cause I'm working on my content and my story and my book and things. I was going through all the things I had written down in my journals and I saw the places where my attempt at peacemaking actually worked against me because of the kind of person that I was working with. So I remember.

He wanted the divorce first of all. But I was like, well, I'm the primary parent, so I had the kids. Even though we were separated, what I thought was a temporary separation. But I was still doing the good wife stuff. So I would be, I literally have these emails. I was staying with a friend, he was in the marital home, but I was still taking the kids to all of their martial arts and music things. I would email him the kids' schedule that week.

And say "Hey, if you wanna see the kids, I don't feel comfortable bringing them over to the house, and I don't want you to come over to where I am right now, but if you wanna see the kids, they're gonna be at this place at this time for this, they..." And then for weeks, like he did not come to visit the kids, and then like a few days before our first court date, he like showed up, scooped up the kids, and basically took them away.

And I was like, looking back, I'm just like, you can't do that with everybody. And that was where my own discernment was not right. I couldn't discern the difference between a safe person and an unsafe person.

Kendell Lenice (28:17) Isn't that something? That's real. That's so real and I just got a little chill up my arm. That's so real. Especially if you're coming from a pure space or a vulnerable space or an honest space, but somebody else is not operating in the same things. They're operating in revenge or trying to take you down or trying to mess with your mental space or trying to hold up a whatever it is, like some people are not for whatever reason, you know what I mean? So it is different when you're coming from a different type of space and somebody is not because it can be weaponized. I've been there.

Sade (28:58) Yeah. It can, it can. I tell my clients in the dating after divorce collective, I'm like, listen, you have to have both your feminine and your masculine energy balanced. Like people say, being your feminine energy. I'm like, okay, that's real, but it's not really the way people say it. You need both. You need to know when to set a boundary, when to protect yourself, when to see danger. You know, the Bible says like a wise man sees danger coming and he steps out of the way.

When you're in this feminine, coquettish energy, you just pray. You're just sitting on the sidelines and anybody can come get you.

Kendell Lenice (29:42) Oh my God. It's so true. Oh my gosh. I day is so true. It's so true. It's so true and that is something that you have to learn. That's something I had to learn like everybody is not operating in the system here. Even if they say that they're a believer of God, even if they say they're the everybody is not operating in the morality space that you're operating in or the grace space or to... Everybody is not operated. Some people are out to really get you, to harm you. Like everybody is not for your greater good, even if they're saying that out of your mouth. You have to watch people's actions. And that's what life has taught me in a certain relationship.

Sade (30:19) Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah.

So let's talk about your healing before we get into the good romantic stuff. I want to talk about your healing journey a little cause I'm like, okay, you got the divorces. I know you did some healing work cause you wrote this book called, I don't know if it's, if it's going to flip it, but it says "Your Unhealed is Showing," which is a fantastic title for a book. And something that I, I saw as I was like, reading it says you created the acronym HEAL means honor everything about life. So just tell us a little bit about where that came from and like what you did to heal so that you're in this healthy relationship you're in now. Like what was that journey like?

Kendell Lenice (31:16) I love that and I forgot that I said that and it just really just, whew. Thank you. Because God will give me things in the moment and sometimes I will forget that I said it because it's divine. But it's really honor everything about life. That's what healing is and that's what I honor. You have to honor your experiences.

No matter what's happening, good, bad, ugly, indifferent. And you can't allow it to shake you to the root and change who you are because it's easy to change who you are based off of how someone is, how someone treated you or the experiences that you've had. It's easy to do that. But we have to know everything works for the greater good for those who love the Lord, right? So you got to think about that. Everything works together.

So you have to honor everything about life because we didn't write our life. We might detour our life and take longer to get to places and learn things and bump our heads over and over again and fall down and choose badly when it comes to relationships or choose amazingly when it comes to relationships, right? Because all divorces is not because we've chosen badly.

Because we're only responsible for ourselves. We're not responsible for someone else or what happens, the trauma or tragedies or just life in general that happens when people divorce. If communication breaks down finances, a child gets sick, you know, or somebody moves away. It's just a lot of different things that are in the fold, but you have to honor everything about life. And when you honor everything about life, that's where your healing begins.

That's where it starts when you honor everything and say, "Okay, so what is it?" Because you have to think about that. You have to go through the journey. And when you honor everything about life and you start thinking about your life, then you're able to pinpoint what's happening and then try to heal whatever was happening in life. And it starts childhood, honor everything. What happened in childhood? What happened in, you know, adolescent years, what happened in adulthood or teen years and going on and on and on and just try to really reflect over your life to see if you can pinpoint certain things.

Sade (33:48) Yeah, no, I love that. And that was definitely part of my journey as well. Cause I remember like the divorce itself was like, I mean, it was, if I, if you had a, if I, if anyone had a midlife crisis, my divorce basically precipitated like a whole crisis because up until that point, I didn't think my childhood impacted me at all. A lot of stuff that happened in my childhood, but I was never in a space where I had heard that, yeah, you really should go to therapy and work through your childhood.

No one had no one had ever told me that I thought I was fine and I was just like doing things And so then I get to this divorce and like my whole internal identity my emotions like everything like I was just like This is it was like what is happening? I couldn't believe that that was my life and so that kind of took me down the path of Realizing that part of all of this was my childhood. So I was working on

Like you said, honoring that and processing that and reflecting on that, processing and reflecting on the marriage itself and all of those. My healing journey was very much, like you said, working through and accepting everything that had happened in my life. Which is not, it's easier said than done.

Kendell Lenice (34:44) It is, it's not easy because if you told me, so I told you my parents separated when I was young, right? So I don't even remember or recall, even though we were all together, I don't remember or recall when that was because I was so young. Although my father has been in my life and everything, but we did not live together in a lot of points. We lived in different states, right?

So I never, like my mom was an amazing mom and still is, I never ever thought that my father not being there was a problem because when I was a child, it was not. It was not. I had my grandparents, I had my mom, my cousins. I knew my father would come if I had a track meet, if I had this, he would come, birthday come. So I already knew as a child the dynamic.

Of my father being there, I'm being there. It was never where I would have, you know, friends, their father was right there. That never triggered me when I was young. I would have people, I had a client one time tell me, fast forward, I was really, I really went through it because my father wasn't in the house and I felt he abandoned me. And I was like, "Dad," I said, "It's crazy. I've never felt that, never thought about it."

Never cried at night when I was little wishing he was there as a young age. At a young age, I knew the dynamics. It wasn't until I was 29 years old when I was like, "Snap, there may be something here. This might be it. This might be why, you know, I've gotten married multiple times. This might be why, you know," and even at 29, I still didn't even get it there, but I knew that it was something. Right.

That I knew that the relationship wasn't what it could have been or what it was. When I saw him with my younger, he got remarried and with my younger siblings, I saw on his side, I saw the dynamic between them and was like, "I think I might have missed something." But while I was in the moment, I had no idea as a child at all. Never thought about it, never cried for it, never wanted "Well why are their fathers here, my" never not one time no.

Sade (37:27) Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. You don't miss what you don't know exists.

Kendell Lenice (37:31) And most of my friends had their mother and father in the house. In my neighborhood, I grew up in New Jersey, most of them, it's still, they had it. So you would think that it would really be polarized that I was raised with a single mom in the house. You would think that it would be polarized because it was so different. And then I had a couple of friends that way, but the majority, you know, they did in my neighborhood, but I didn't until I was grown. So.

All of the things that have gone through in relationships that were probably, you know, I only can talk about me. I can't talk about somebody else just because we were in a marriage or relationship with each other. But, and I'm like, "Who?" So you talk about the healing journey, even with me, I've had to coach myself. Why do you respond like this? Why are you defensive like that? Why does rejection bother you like that? Why do you hurt like that? Why do you feel...

Like you're alone. Like why do you feel like you're set apart? Why do you feel that you're different? Why do you, I did all of that with myself strongly when I was probably, I've done it throughout, but I really was intentional when I was probably about 46. I really was like, because I've always been self-aware, especially with myself, you know, may not get on social media or wasn't then or platform say, "Hey, let me tell you about me." But I always knew about me, right? So that's a big thing. And most people don't, most people want to point fingers. I'm like, "What am I responsible for? How can I be better?" Right? So I've always been aware, but I really did a dive deep, a deep dive when I was 46. And I was coming up with like, you know, with.

Sade (39:16) Yeah. Yeah. And there wasn't as much information out on the internet like it is today.

Kendell Lenice (39:24) What? No! Heck no, you didn't know nothing. You didn't know nothing. I had one of my, not to change it to dark, but one of my favorite cousins who was like my sister die, right? And I was 19. We didn't get therapy. We didn't get therapy. None of my family pretty much got therapy. We're carrying all of that.

You know, so yes, you know, so you don't. For my degree, I interned at a grief and loss center. And when I tell you that blew my mind, even with certain things, so you don't know until you know. You don't know what you're...

Sade (40:09) Yeah, yeah, I remember when I like I had trauma Codependency, what is like I had no idea? Until my separation and then I'm like, okay Well, I listened to a podcast because that's when I started going on or listening to podcasts and someone said you might be Codependent. I'm like, oh, I wonder what that is. I'm like I read the list I'm like, okay Sounds like I got some codependency going on right then I go to this, you know, so I started attending a 12-step program started to podcast I listening to books

And those were extremely helpful, but one thing that was also missing at the time was applying that to divorce. Like the unique situations that happened in my divorce, it was like I was learning all these things and then I was having to apply them myself to the divorce, like the unique situation. People were talking about narcissists, but they weren't talking about like, okay, if you are divorcing a narcissist, this is kind of like what needs to be done.

And it's really why I became a coach, because I was like, it needs to be pieced together in a way that ends up applying to those of us that are in these particular situations. So I'm thankful for the internet. I know there's a lot of stuff on the internet, and I complain about it sometimes, but it saved my life. Literally YouTube saved my life.

Kendell Lenice (41:24) I'm telling you, let me tell you something. I've done podcasts on narcissism, gaslighting, emotional abuse, all of that. And it hits different when you're gaslit. You get what I'm saying? You can talk about it. You can teach it. That's why I say I don't even talk about my degrees, my certifications. I don't, I talk about my experience because it just enhances that stuff. To me, my experience outweighs all of the schooling that I've had. And I'm telling you until I experienced it's like, "Shoot, I this is I'm being gaslit. Oh my God." Once you wake up out of the fog of, "We're it's going to, you know, work out. Let me just pray for them. Let me just, you know, give grace. Let me do" when you wake up out of that fog, it's like this, like you wake up and then you like, "Shoot," so then you dial it back. "When this happened, was that manipulative? Was that even true?" You start questioning everything. That gas being gas lit, and I know it's such a buzzword now, and people using it.

Sade (42:30) I'm okay with buzzwords. Here's the thing, people complain about, people are overusing gaslighting, they're overusing narcissism. I'm like, yes, some people are gonna overuse it, but we still need those words because there are people who are going through it. It's better for it to be overused and we save the people who need the help than we shut everything down, can't talk about it, and then other women can get the help they need. So, alright, well let's get to, I wanna hear your love story.

Kendell Lenice (42:38) And then it's argumentative. I was thinking, I was like, it's argumentative. If you're just tutored, then you gotta go back.

Sade (43:11) Yeah, yeah. You gotta go back, yeah. They're like, yeah. That's a whole podcast episode about how women's voices, and it's interesting, the buzzwords that people complain about are the words that women use to describe what we're going through. Because you know what's a buzzword? All this corporate jargon.

No one says you really need to stop talking about like return to work and ROI. Nobody says stop using those words.

Kendell Lenice (43:37) Yep. And we're only and when we're talking to a gaslighter or we're talking to someone they will minimize it too. Like, "Okay, what you're to use? That's your favorite word. You just learned that today." That's what happened to me. "You just learned that today?" No, been knowing this about 20 years, but it never happened to me. So now, now, yes. Right. Exactly. But that's another form of gaslighting. That's emotional manipulation. Even when you're calling them out.

Sade (43:49) Yes! It never happened. You are the person that I need to use. Hmm?

Kendell Lenice (44:09) They're going to do the same thing and then that's when you know, "Okay, this thing is real." Yes, yes. But it's not about holding grudges, it's not about bashing, it's about learning, you know, and how you could have contributed and learn and move forward. Like some people get stuck and paralyzed where they don't wanna seek another relationship, they don't wanna get married again because they're so shell-shocked.

Now had I been, because I had a right to be shell shocked with a lot of different things. And my one girlfriend was like, "But you just have your open heart to love again." And that's really the grace of God because you can't let somebody paralyze you or let somebody prohibit you from having love that's out there waiting for you. That's divinely out there waiting for you.

And sometimes that's what happens and people won't. It's people that won't date for 10 years because they're so shell shocked and they're so scared.

Sade (44:58) Right. The way I tell my clients, I'm like, what's happened to those people is that your ex, we're talking the toxic, abusive ex, kept you from love for the 10 years or whatever that you were married to this person. I'm like, listen, you were married 10 years, he was toxic, he isolated you, he did all these things, so you didn't have love for 10 years. Okay, we see that. And now, you're like, because he did that, you are now not going to open yourself to love for the next 30 years.

So you're literally letting this person both ruin a part of your life in the past and also take over your future because he is the reason you won't open yourself to love. Now there's some people who are like, listen, I was never meant to be married. I'm not made for companionship. I'm like, listen, go for sure. But if you wanted love and you want love and you want companionship but you're not going for it because you're X, X, Y, Z, then you are letting him control you even after the relationship has ended. And the other thing that I tell them is, because then I have the other people who just threw themselves out there in the fairy tale again.

Kendell Lenice (46:09) Five minutes after five minutes after the ink was dry

Sade (46:22) Yeah, exactly. I'm like the other thing is, the best way to use what you learned from that past relationship is to learn what did I need to know that I didn't know that will help me have the relationship I need now? What didn't I know? What didn't I know about men? What didn't I know about marriage? What didn't I know about vetting? What didn't I know about dating? What didn't I know about protecting myself?

Kendell Lenice (46:38) Yep. Whoa, wait, wait, wait. Sade rewind that vetting, that vetting that the worst relationship I ever had in that space was the not vetting as I should have. People don't talk about that often. People don't talk.

Sade (46:49) VETTING! YES! My whole program, my whole program, like literally at least two, I won't say two thirds, but maybe like the middle third of my program is all about vetting. That's, that's what, the beginning part where you're swiping and meeting and attracting, okay, that part's easy. Then the end when you're committing and all that, but the middle is all about pacing and vetting and questions and experiences and observations and boundaries. Yeah.

Kendell Lenice (47:16) That's so good. Oh God. Listening to what you learn when you vet.

Sade (47:35) Yes, and not giving all the answers. So many of them will just say, okay, I'm looking for these 10 things. And the man is like, well, thank you. Now I have what I need to use to trick you. No, but yeah, so tell us all about your boyfriend. I loved what you told me about the story. I did have a question before you start. Were you looking for love after your second divorce?

Kendell Lenice (47:44) You must be in my mind because I was literally getting ready to start. I was not looking. Let me tell you something. I had to heal. I had to... to make sure I was good. That was the last thing I was like, "I don't even want to see nobody up in my face right now. Period." You know what I mean? That was the last thing I was looking. I was, I'm a cancer survivor too, as I told you. So I was focusing on my mind, my body, my health, my experience. I, I, it's a known, trainer in this area and it's so funny God I've been in my area for like 30 years heard the name here and there never went never knew never knew the extent of what he did none of that I was totally ignorant to the fact and I'm gonna fast forward he said that's what he prayed for nobody to really even know who he was and I'm gonna circle back so I go to the gym I I don't okay so I have to explain this quickly

Sade (49:02) Go ahead, we got time.

Kendell Lenice (49:11) So my girlfriend and I, we were looking for a day camp for her grandchildren who lived out of state, right? So we're in this business park for like 30 minutes, walking back and forth. Like they said it was here. I didn't know that. Where is it? Right? This business park. There's an ice cream truck that comes by.

So we like, "Let's just get," you know, we making ho we had just had sushi. We're like, "Okay, let's look" and we're walking. It's nice out, right? So the ice cream truck pulls up in a space. So now there's a summer Bible class for teenagers. So they pile out and the line is super long to get it. We don't have time. We have time. We're like, "Cool." Why do we turn around? And it's my boyfriend's gym. He's not my boyfriend then. Don't know him. I'm like, "I heard that guy. That's where it is." So that already registered in my mind when I'm talking, "I need to go back to the gym," right? So I followed, you know, I think on Instagram or somebody was saying they had a special, I was like, "I'm going to go," right? So anyway, we're standing in front of his, alongside his gym for like 40 minutes.

So it's embedded in my mind that that's here because he had a location before the pandemic. And then after the pandemic, he didn't have that. You guys, you already know what's happening with the pandemic. So I had no idea he was there. He wasn't even on my radar, meaning he was there. He wasn't on my radar. I'm just like, "I've heard people say that they've gone him. I don't know him, but he is," the picture was on the thing, the title of it, right?

So it's just in my mind. So we have the ice cream, we do everything and we're looking. Still couldn't find the place. We ended up finding it was under a different name, right? So I'm with my friend. So months pass and I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready to go to the gym." That gym is in my mind. I said, "I saw it online. They were like, they're having a special. And I was like, perfect. Let me go to the gym." So I'm going to the gym in my head wrap.

I'm not having no cute little, just got on leggings and a t-shirt. Like I'm not coming in there. Well, you know, looking for a man, that's the last thing, especially the owner. That's the last thing. And it's a, and I wanted to go because somebody was saying there's a lot, know, everybody that I heard over 30 years were women. So I didn't know that it was all women or mostly women. So I go, it's mostly women. It's no guys there. Perfect. Perfect. No guys there.

Perfect. I'm on my grind trying to get my body and spirit together. And I hear him say to somebody, "Yeah, no, let me back up." So the first time I come in, never met this man a day in my life. I walk in the door, he gives a special handshake to me and we're doing this special handshake. Later I find out he never did that with anybody. And it was so weird. It was already the synergy and the connection. But I'm not thinking he's trying to flirt. I'm not thinking none of that, right?

I just, we just do the handshake and I go in and do what I do. And you know, he's training me and all of this, right? So I hear him on the other end, like as you know, as the weeks go by, not the first day, but I hear him like, "Yeah, she's, Kendell's the closest person to me." I don't know him. I don't know him. I don't know why he said that. Why?

Sade (52:47) He's like, "I know, he's my best friend."

Kendell Lenice (52:52) I don't know that and she said and I guess and then I guess start following me on social media and he was like "She's so humble she's not going to tell you she does this this and" I hear him telling the lady mind you I'm still in a zone but like "Is he is he talking about me" you know what I mean because he's a personal trainer so I'm not thinking anything and that's what he had this special one so I'm there and these were the months of November and December he had like some holiday special so

I said, "Let me just go for November in December, grind it out" and not thinking anything of it. So then in December, after it's over and I'm not really there, he's like, "Hey, you coming back to the gym? Miss you, blah, blah." And I'm just following up. And then a text comes one time, like, "If I ask you out, would you go?" And I'm like, "Huh?" Because there's all of these women at the gym.

You know, we followed each other on social media. I had already followed, I think, the gym page already when I saw him. And I was like, "It duly noted, because I'm going start going to the gym. Let me just put this in." And you know how you look at the Instagram. So I guess he started following me on Instagram, I guess, seeing the stuff that I was doing. Because you wouldn't know at the gym, I had my big glasses on.

I had head wrap, had, you clearly knew I wasn't trying to find nobody. And then let alone, and my daughter was like, "I think he likes you." I was like, "No, cause he's friendly and nice to everybody." I didn't think it. My daughter was like, "I don't know, but he is friendly and he is nice to everybody." Which I know personally now, but he asked and I said yes. And then it was like weeks that passed. So I wasn't like, "Remember you said you wanted to take me out?" I just let it.

Let it go. I wasn't going to the gym anymore. I thought about going back, you know, like the next year, but didn't have any official plans to, you know, go back. But I was like, "Okay, that felt good. I needed that. That was after the divorce, after I had tried to go through divorce for a couple of years." You get what I mean? So it was like, I was like, "Whew." You know what I mean? I was mentally and emotionally drained.

To be quite honest with you. So I wasn't, so I think January came around, we're texting, I went away from my daughter's birthday, we were texting a little bit. And in January, we went out. So we went out the January and didn't expect it. And now it's going on two years.

Didn't expect it two years or something, you know. So I didn't expect it. It was not something that I was looking for. It was not something that I wanted. Cause I don't have, I was, you know, swiping left and going online. Let's just, just to see what was going on out there. Nothing really, you know, like going like, "Maybe I'll go to dinner. Let me see." Like, you know what I mean? So it wasn't really doing that. And it just happened.

Organically, like it happened organically and we get along great. We're very like-minded. We're both like, my daughter was with us one day and was like, "I feel like I'm y'all chaperone." Cause we like that, we were on a seesaw. We were on a seesaw, we'll be climbing a rock here. We'll be dancing in the street here. We'll just in it's.

You know, it's fun. I mean, all work, relationships are, you have your challenges as you get to know and enter and you decide, you know, see what this person is like or they see what you're like and seeing how you can work well together and all of that. But yeah.

Sade (57:00) I love that. And I know I've heard the people try to make a formula out of the, "I wasn't looking for it." Right? Like they'll be like, okay, so I want a partner, but I'm going to stop looking for it because people say it's when you stop looking for it that you get it.

Kendell Lenice (57:08) Let me tell you, Sade, that wasn't my formula because I was not looking and I was not subliminally looking and I wasn't con- in my heart, I wasn't looking. Of course, who doesn't want companionship, right? Who doesn't want a connection? Of course, you know, like they say, God knows the desires of your heart. So if God placed that desire and that was there and that's what he was showing, but me, Kendall, I was- I wasn't. Like I- I was not secretly looking.

Like I was not, had I gone on dates and stuff? Yeah, to see when somebody started saying, you know, "Hey, do you want to get married again? Or do you think about," I was like, "Uh-uh, no, absolutely not. No, not happening, not doing it." And I went on a date with this one guy and he was like, "Well, what do you mean?" I said, "God would have to come down and tell me himself because I'm not interested." And he got offended.

So it's a lot of men out there that wanted the commitment. And I was like, "No," like I've been there. I don't want that. And so I was serious when I said I wasn't really looking to be serious with anybody.

Sade (58:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's amazing. I think that's realizing, and I think that kind of brings us back to the beginning of the conversation, which is divorce can only be this shameful thing if it falls short of this standard that gets handed to us. And if it falls short of the standard, and I think that's the problem. The problem is that we get given the standard. Okay, you need to be married by 25, and you need to have children by 30, and then you need to...

Raise the children and stay in that marriage until you die. And then we all sort of like covertly hold this standard for every single human being, whether or not that standard will work for them. And we don't give people the opportunity to say, what's going to work for me as an individual, the way God made me, the way my personality is, what I wanna do in life. There's so many options. It's not just the one standard.

Kendell Lenice (58:59) Yes. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes, and I say even in my relationship in the past or my divorce even before that, even though it was not the best, I'm gonna be honest with you, and I'm trying to make sure I choose my words, I'm choosing my words consciously because I don't want to...

Because that was the experience and that person and I, we know what happened in that. You get what I'm saying? And I don't want to, I don't live there anymore. You know what I mean? Internally, I don't hold that anymore. I don't live in that space anymore. You get what I'm saying? I know what that space was like. I have been freed. I have been delivered from that space. So it's in order to move forward, you have to be free of that.

All of that and he knows what you know all that stuff, you know, right? You know, right? All of that delivered. Not even even the same person I was yesterday. You get what I'm saying? Not even in and still I still say and I say all of that to say that I'm so grateful even all of that happened because it was one of the greatest teachers I've ever had in my life. That experience.

It was one, it shifted me and I'm up here now. When it comes to experiences, when it comes to resilience, when it comes to learning about other people, about myself, it was one of my greatest teachers. And if God had to put me in that space and time, in that time for those things to happen, then I'm grateful and I'm thankful because it made me

A stronger, better, wiser person. And my eyes open, I don't live in Kansas no more. My eyes wide open. You get what I'm saying? And I'm thankful for it. And I talk about that in the book. I thank all my unorthodox teachers. And that was an unorthodox teacher. And I got to say that as I exited that relationship, I said, "Thank you for being an unorthodox teacher." I told him that.

And I mean that because no matter what, and that's how we have to look at it, because each experience in relationships, in marriages, in divorces brings you to the ultimate person you're supposed to be. Eric Roberson has a song, "All the Lessons That I've Had Led Me to You," right? So whatever it is, it is, and it makes us forget the relation that we're talking about.

You know, relationships and divorce, but forget that it makes you a stronger, better person if you're able to survive and pray through it. I'd never prayed. I thought I prayed a lot. When I was dealing with that, I had never prayed. I was like, "God is like, thank you. Thank you." You get what I'm saying? So if it was all that to even bring me closer to God than I thought I was close, but it even made it stronger, then it's all worth it.

Sade (1:02:34) Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. I love, I love, you know, that you, you take the time to reflect on your experiences and you let them make you the person you're supposed to be. You let them change you, you let them shift you. And I'm sure that makes you an amazing teacher in the places that you are teaching people to grow and to heal and to thrive in relationships as well. Candel, thank you so much for coming on.

And sharing your story, really appreciate it. This has been such a fun conversation. So let's talk about your work a little bit. Again, listeners, just want to, for those of you that are on video, excuse me, "Your Unhealed is Showing," but this is not Kendall's only book. She's author of multiple books. Most recently, a children's book. Yeah, tell us about that.

Kendell Lenice (1:03:33) Yes. "God Thinks I'm Special." I'm so proud of that book. I've always wanted to do with a children's book. I work with children on a regular basis. And it's like what we're talking about in adulthood. So it's a children's book, but it will speak to adults, their inner child, as we talked earlier. A lot of things stem from that. So when you see people online acting out or trying to get likes or followers or subscribing, they're doing things that's not even who they are.

Is because something inside of them does not feel special. Someone needs validation for someone to like them. So if I can catch children when they're young to let them know that God thinks that they're special, you know, I pray that I won't later see you as my life coaching client, you know, trying to get through that. So it's really great for children, obviously, children five to 12.

But also adults. If adults read this to need the reminder that you guys are special too and you've always been special because I know a lot of adults didn't feel like they were special as children and now they're operating in that now, right now in adulthood. So that's what that book is about and I'm so happy and the little girl's name is Sunny and she's so cute on the cover. I just love her. I just took Sunny to Brooklyn, New York.

This past weekend. So yes, I love her.

Sade (1:04:58) Amazing! Amazing, amazing. Alright, so listeners, all of Kendell's links will be in the show notes. There will be a link to the book, her website, her Instagram, her YouTube channel where she has a ton of resources for you. So please definitely check that out. Follow her on all of the socials. And Kendell, do you have just one last piece of advice for the listeners are generally women who are dating after divorce. They are on the apps, they are looking for...

Their next relationship. What is one piece of advice you would love to give them?

Kendell Lenice (1:05:35) Understand that everybody wants love and looking for love but make sure you do the work on yourself first. Make sure you know what you like that way someone else can't persuade that. Make sure you know what you want that way someone else doesn't persuade that. Make sure you are strong in who you are and make sure that you start at least your healing journey, right? Because in some people that you meet they can help you along the way but you have to make sure you start it.

And I want you all to know that you are more than enough with or without a relationship and that a relationship is an addition. It's an asset to who you already are. So I want you to be strong in self first and then have fun. Don't take yourself too seriously. Don't take the people who too seriously. When you know who that person is and if it's the right one, God will speak to you and lead you to that person. But have fun.

Relax and date. You deserve to be somebody's date and date yourself until then.

Sade (1:06:32) Yes, that's right. That's right. I love it. I love it. All right. Listeners, thank you so much for your time and attention today and we appreciate you listening. Kendall, thank you for your time today. We appreciate having you on and we will see you all next time.

Kendell Lenice (1:06:46) Thank you for having me.